Rocky Marciano vs. Jim Jeffries

Great points.

 

Did you read my retort on page 6?

 

Yes. You were a bit long winded and could have summed it up quite simplyi thought.

The simple fact of the matter is that Peter's opposition has been considerably better overall from Klit on. Tho Wlad has a very shaky chin he is class levels above what Peter is used to.

The way you use your stats reminds me a lot of the late DR.Z.

 

Savold, though, was a lot more durable than the raw stats would imply. He turned pro at 17. Three of his ko defeats were as a teenager. A fourth came at 20 and a fifth just past his 21st birthday. To this point in April of 1937, he had suffered 5 ko's in 43 fights. Over the next 15 years and 94 fights mostly against the best heavies of his era, Savold was stopped by Lem Franklin, Harry Bobo, Elmer Ray, Joe Louis, and Rocky Marciano. Two were ATG champions, the others were top five ranked heavyweights by Ring Magazine, three made Ring's all-time top hundred punchers list.
Beshore is a lot like Chuck Wepner. He was prone to cut but was tough. He suffered an early knockout, but was ko'd in his prime only by Marciano. His other five stoppages were on cuts.

I would say some caution has to be exercised with these old-timers on these type of stats as they often turned pro as teenagers with little or no amateur experience. They learned on the job and ko defeats were part of their learning process.

 

Savold was re-tired and un-retired ( Woodcock fight ) by the time he fought Louis. He was old and used up. The KO for Louis does not mean much. I am a bit surpised by the spin off on this thread. Clealry Louis lost his power and snap when he came back. Maricano Ko'd Savlod in Savlod's last fight, and to be honest Marciano did not look good at all in that effort.

I highly doubt the verison of Savold who fought old Joe Louis and Rocky Maricano would make it past 4 rounds vs either Peter or Wlad.

 

Marciano did not look good because Savold was tough to knock out. He knew how to slip and roll with punches. This is an example of your often having your cake and eating it too arguments. Savold lasts a good while against a great puncher in his prime. Your conclusion is to criticize the great puncher and also give Savold no credit for his effort.

I never heard that Savold retired, but so what--it couldn't have been for long. He had at least one fight every year.

He fought Louis ranked the #2 contender in the world. Actually, in the yearly 1950 rankings, he was the co #1 contender with Louis, and, of course, considered champion by the BBBC. He was coming off a big win over Woodcock, a dangerous puncher.

 

This is the relevant quote, I think, from "The Sweet Science".

"Critics had been saying for years that his right had lost its authority, but the hook had existed in all its pristine glory as recently as the Savold bout, and he had it in the training camp when I was watching him. ("It would take a Goliath to withstand a couple of those," old Colonel Stingo had said solemnly.)

Page 44.

 

Yes, but--compare him to Sugar Ray Robinson on his comeback. Robinson showed a great overhand right in stopping Turpin in 1951 and Graziano in 1952.
When he came back after a year and a half retirement in 1954, critics openly asked what had happened to his right. He stopped an ordinary Joe Rindone and Ted Olla, but was badly beaten by gatekeeper Tiger Jones and taken the distance by Johnny Lombardo and Garth Panter. Many felt he got a gift decision against Rocky Castellani, who had him down. His power seemed gone, especially the right cross.
Of course, Robinson then rallied to stop Bobo Olson twice, both times with flurries in which rights were thrown, but left hooks did the damage.
After going ten with the mediocre Bob Provizzi and losing badly to Gene Fullmer and being judged finished, he stops the tough Fullmer in a rematch with one left hook.
Two matches with Basilio follow. In the second, a Robinson right uppercut breaks a blood vessel in Basilio's left eye. Basilio fights much of the fight partially blinded and unable to see Robinson's right coming. Robinson still can't ko him. Basilio would not have lasted a few years earlier.

So Robinson has 13 fights from 1954 to 1958. He goes 10-3 with 5 knockouts. Interestingly, he has three ko's in four fights against Olson and Fullmer, but only 2 in his other 9. If you take Basilio out, Robinson was 2 for 7 against mediocre opposition. He had gone back and had lost the power in his right, but he was still dangerous as both Olson and Fullmer learned.

My conclusion--Louis and Robinson were in about the same shape. Louis failed because he ran into better fighters in Charles and Marciano than Robinson did in the weak-jawed Olson, and also Fullmer.

I don't know a way to transfer youtube here, but I would recommend going to youtube and watching the Robinson highlights. Note the rights against Turpin and Graziano, and note their absence against Olson, Fullmer, and Basilio, at least in the sense of dropping opponents or shaking them up badly.

 

Mendoza--in an earlier post you said that while Walcott was a solid hitter, he did not have the power of Fitzsimmons. Fitz was certainly the better p4p puncher, if much smaller, but I don't think he was a more formidable opponent for someone like Jeffries, or Marciano. I think he was just too small to get the most out of his power. Jeffries was about 30% heavier in body weight and a man who's style was to maul and wrestle. He was also certainly tough-chinned. As a super-middleweight, Fitz was simply tired too quickly from these tactics to have much chance to have his power work on Jeffries. Gilbert Odd emphasizes that Fitz was quickly in trouble against Jeffries and forced onto the defensive even in the early rounds.
A much bigger and stronger man such as Walcott would do better, I think, in holding his own in the clinches with Jeff, as he did with Marciano, and therefore ultimately would have a better chance of getting Jeff into deep water.

 

The version of Savold who fought Joe Louis appeared fresher, faster, in much better physical shape than the version of Savold who fought Rocky. Savold looked pretty decent on film vs louis, he looked shot to pieces when he fought rocky.

 

OLD FOGEY,

It holiday time, and I'll gladly share the cake. I re-watched my Maricano DVD of the Savold fight. Marciano misses more times than anyone I've seen, and it’s not all Savold's defensive work. Rocky just did not look in this fight. This is probably Rocky’s worst fight on film. That I have seen.

Did Savold do well vs punchers? Not when they landed. Let's excuse the 4th Round TKO to Udell and the 1st round Maier and pick up on Savold's career in 1935. Savold had a fair of amount of experience by then.

Savold was stopped in 4 by Billy Trest, a fighter listed with only 5 stoppages in 23 fights.

Savold was stopped in 3 rounds by Brubaker, who had 18 Ko's in 39 listed fights.

Savold was stopped in 6 by Valin, who had only 19 Ko's in 70 fights.

Savold was stopped by in 2 Franklin ( 8-3 ), who was somewhat green in the match. Franklin could punch and was not a journeyman like the above guys were. Still this is an early round KO loss vs a green fighter.

Savold was stopped early again by Bobo in 2 rounds. Bobo had 24 Ko's in 49 fights.

Savold was stopped early again by Ray in 2 rounds. Ray, like Franklin was a contender.

It seems like Savold, who was a good defensive fighter was not that hard to stop if you landed on him. He was Ko’d by guys who were average punchers, and blow out a bit to much to be viewed as a durable fighter.

Savold retired in 1948, and then made comeback vs Woodcock, Louis and Marciano. The fact that Savold could be seen as the #2 or #1 contender in the world in 1950 suggests a lack of depth in the heavyweight division in those days.

The objective posters should lean toward the following three conclusions.

1 ) Louis power and snap diminished with age in his comeback attmept. Three Ko's in his last 10 fights says a lot. If you want to exmain the fighters, you'll see many of them were stopped quite often.


2 ) Maricano looked rather poor on film vs a washed up Savold who was stopped early on a few occasions.

3) Savold by no means was a durable fighter.

 

I have the Ring magazine for the month Savold fought Marciano,Rocky was panned for his effort,journalists thought he was very lack lustre ,and should have despatched the ring worn Savold earlier.

 

Yes, I have it also. Jersey Jones really lays it on about how bad both of them looked. I've seen the fight in its entirety. It certainly is Marciano's worst performance on film but he won every round and sent Savold to the hospital. As for Savold, I think he was fighting to survive after the first couple of rounds. I noticed in the film that Savold was a fairly shifty fellow with subtle moves. Marciano was wild, but Savold helped him miss also. Not enough to keep himself out of the hospital, though.

When questioned about Marciano not being able to floor Savold, Joe Louis replied, "Savold really knows how to roll and slip a punch. Marciano was too anxious."
Ring Magazine, July, 1952, page 19.

 

To prove your case against Savold you had to dig back into those teenage fights, including Billy Trest, who stopped him on cuts when Savold was still short of his 19th birthday. The fact is, after the stoppage by Valin just after his 21st birthday, Savold had 94 fights over 15 years and was stopped 5 times-four by men who were considered among the best punchers of their time or all time, Louis, Marciano, Franklin, and Ray, and once by the 6' 4" 210 lb Harry Bobo, who had 24 ko's in 45 fights according to boxrec, certainly better than Choynski's 29 of 82 or Bonecrusher Smith's 32 of 61 and you listed them as great punchers in an earlier post. It should be noted that Savold also reversed the ko's to Valin and Franklin, and went the distance with or stopped Buddy Baer, Lou Nova, Tami Mauriello, Joe Baksi, Buddy Walker, Arturo Godoy, and Bruce Woodcock, among others. I would judge him pretty durable, myself.

Nobody is arguing Louis hadn't gone back, but this does not mean he could no longer punch.

And Harry Bobo was a contender. He was ranked #5 in 1942.

 

Marciano had the flu, which is especially bad for someone of his style. Even on his bad days, he still won. People need to stop trying to discredit the man so much or if so, do a better job at it.