Rocky Marciano vs Larry Holmes, with poll

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by cross_trainer, Nov 30, 2021.

Who wins?

  1. Holmes wins, and I've had at least one boxing match

    46.4%
  2. Holmes wins, and I've never had a boxing match

    42.0%
  3. Marciano wins, and I've had at least one boxing match

    7.2%
  4. Marciano wins, and I've never had a boxing match

    1.4%
  5. I voted by mistake, so I'm changing my answer to this option

    2.9%
  1. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Holmes doesn't need to hit like a truck to frustrate Rocky with his framing, long jab, etc. He can comfortably win a decision, he doesn't need to take Rocky out. If the tactics are consistently working there's no need to change tactics.

    Lastarza had good technique and movement but didn't have the same height, reach, and experience of a peak Holmes.

    Let's shift gears for a moment: have you ever competed in boxing even if it was just a spar? Or any contact sport such as karate?

    And if so, did you ever have to fight someone who had a significant height and reach advantage?
     
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  2. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You misunderstood. When I made the statement that Holmes was twice as skilled as many Rocky opponents I meant in general. Not specifically men like Walcott or Charles. I wasn't suggesting Rocky cherry picked, although his management did a hell of a job for his early career setting him up with soft touches due to his lack of amateur experience.

    This stems back to the discussion of Rocky's defensive ability and his ability to land consistently when it was his turn. There weren't a whole lot of guys in his record that truly tested him the way holmes would on either end.

    The vast majority of heavyweight champions landed more than they received. This is common sense.

    You guys keep misconstruing what I'm saying. Gazelle punch insists Rocky had the best defensive stats of prior champs and got hit the least based on some very flawed studies that included bouts when Frazier and Tyson when they were well past their best.

    Nowhere was I claiming it was a common occurrence in Rocky's career to receive more than he dished out.
     
  3. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Yes I teach a class even lol. I spar every week. I’m not professional.

    I think you guys are far to into height and reach. It can be a factor depending on styles and skill. But for someone like Marciano (or Frazier and Tyson for thag matter) being small isn’t a problem when you utilize a proper style to suit you. In their case being small was part of their style and they used it to their advantage. Closing the gap is easy! I teach kids how to close the gap using multiple techniques (double jab, walking down, countering etc). I teach them how to cut off a ring properly. If you know what you’re doing height and reach is an afterthought. Smaller guys do have a disadvantage in that if they’re not animals they’re done. Meaning they need some power to break down there opponents. I’ll give you that. It’s easier to create a style for a big man then it is smaller but if you have the power and chin you can be a great small man.
    I’ve faced pros who were 220 and good hitters but the hardest I’ve been hit Is by two men one at 205 the other at 190. I’ve faced multiple guys 240 plus they weren’t pro though
     
  4. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Ok but I asked specifically if you sparred guys with a significant height and reach combo? As in at least 4 inches taller with much longer arms?

    You claim closing the gap is "easy", but when both guys are of a similar level of skill and ability, no it absolutely is not. And I'm speaking from experience.

    I'm not suggesting that have a disadvantage in height and reach is a death sentence, just that if you are facing a very skilled fighter who does NOT want you getting close to him it's not a piece of cake to press the issue. Hundreds of hours of fight footage shows this.
     
  5. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    not necessarily true depending on the distance great fighter can force on their opponents. It’s about levels. But you are correct for lower quality fighters where this works out.

    Again, this is depending on advanced level of distance.

    which were these assets Ken Norton had over Holmes that were better than Marciano had?

    Thanks for replying. It is admittedly a small number you select here. Not sure a unanimous case can be made for Norton Spinks and Witherspoon beating Walcott Charles and Moore but they would be good fights.
    That’s good.

    Ah that’s fine then.

    I thought as much, and I apologise.
     
  6. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Closing the gap isn’t difficult. If you have the right tool set and style. Controlling distance is a huge part of winning a match. Holyfield and Usyk for example were great at controlling distance. You have to be brave and willing to stand in the pocket with the big guys. But the benefit to thag is the big guy can’t properly throw good punches if you’re controlling the range. Can be as simple as just stepping closer. If I’m to close to you you can’t throw a good jab it becomes useless. Something Marciano did to Louis. He crowded him. And crushed him.

    I’m 6”2 I’ve faced guys as tall as 6”6 but he wasn’t good. Faced ok guys at 6”4. I am NOT pro nor do I claim to be the ****. Just answering your question. I believe style power speed chin are more important factors then height and reach will ever be.
     
  7. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    This is absolutely the key issue that many fans cannot comprehend on Marciano debates.

    The most overlooked and miss understood factor in boxing.

    Understanding on how range works is extremely important. More important than tale of tape!

    This is why trainers will always say footwork is the most important thing in boxing. You cannot do anything without your feet in the right position. And you can also stop your opponent from doing what he wants to do due to foot placement…which really is the same thing as range control.
     
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  8. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Bergeron Avatar Club Full Member

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    Poll says yes.

    (See? Aren't polls like this convenient?)
     
  9. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I knew in the first minute of the Usyk v Joshua fight he was gonna win. Usyk was within range and Joshua had no idea how to counter it. Mainly because Usyk just imposed his will on Joshua. He didn’t do anything fancy other then step in. Closing the gap isn’t difficult
     
  10. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Yes you are correct. Usyk vs Joshua is one of the best recent examples out there for folks to understand.

    A top level fighter knows his range instinctively and it is more apparent with southpaws but applies to all top fighters really.

    Even when he’s not punching he knows his range, when he’s is in and when he’s not. A really good fighter, no matter the style or stance will claim his range like usyk did against Joshua. Really early.

    And sometimes once the guy suited to the closer range forces that on the guy who needs more room, he’s already making the other guy compromised. Restricted to what he can do.

    There are fights like Usyk vs Joshua where this is really obvious. Where it is really apparent. Other fights where the guy can adapt enough to even things up a lot more. But often once one guy is forcing his range and the other guy is in the wrong range for him and can’t do what he wants it amounts to exactly the same thing. Even when it is less apparent or not.
     
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  11. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Louis didn't have much else besides his jab. He was rather gunshy. Holmes had laser sharp rights and uppercuts too, and he could stiff arm or outmaneuver Rocky if he insisted on getting close.

    Ok so the tall guys you faced weren't that good. I'm telling you from my own personal experience when a guy is equal or superior to you in skill, getting close when the tall guy is hell bent on keeping you away from him is not easy.

    Wouldn't you agree that Holmes is at the very least close to if not better overall in skill to Rocky? What on earth makes you think it would be "easy" for him to get close to Holmes when very strong guys like smith, Weaver, shavers, Williams, Mercer, etc got their head snapped back by holmes and they didn't just walk through his jab or easily dodge it?
     
  12. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    This is exactly what helped Rocky win those fights. These opponents were pushing 40, but mentally and physically they were even older than that since they had well over 60+ fights apiece, not mention tons of sparring, road work, amateur careers, etc. In comparison Rocky was in his prime and had a very short amateur career with a very physically demanding and rough style applying non stop pressure.

    It was both Rocky's youth and sheer athleticism combined with father time that broke down his best opponents. They simply couldn't match his pace and all out aggression. If he fought a heavyweight equivalent of a pernell Whitaker or Mayweather type of guy (in his prime and not heavily shopworn), he would be taught a boxing lesson.
     
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  13. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    But Holmes' footwork is inarguably better than Rocky's... especially prime Holmes. So doesn't all this talk about range control and footwork cancel itself out if Rocky is facing an opponent who is not only taller, but has him beat in footwork and range control? Holmes was brilliant when it came to dictating to the opponent what he wanted them to do and keeping the pace where he was comfortable.

    Even an old as dirt version of Holmes completely tamed and befuddled a prime Mercer keeping the bout exactly how he wanted it to go.
     
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  14. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You’re talking about completely different skill sets here. Of course Holmes is skilled. But styles matter in boxing. Weaver Shavers Williams and Mercer weren’t anything like Marciano. Marciano was an extremely unique fighter. The only guy in history Id compare him to is Qawi but he was stronger then Qawi and had better stamina. Now other people used the crouch and lean style but not many at Hw.
    I said closing the gap is easy. Against Holmes it wouldn’t be an easy night and I stated that. This isn’t an easy fight for Marciano. I said learning to close the gap is easy. You could learn to do it yourself. Marciano employed several strategies in doing so. He straight up would walk guys down, he leaned and parried jabs making opponents over commit with their jabs bringing them closer to within his range. Even Ali was shocked at how good he cut off the ring when they were horsing around sparring. Cutting off the ring is an art. Men like Frazier Foreman and Marciano were the best at it. No one was able to run from Rocky that well. Lastarza did ok but he had really fast feet excellent stamina and a good chin which helped him go longer. He didn’t waste as much energy as larry doing the mirage (hence why he tired). As I’ve stated previously the jab never affected prime Marciano. We have examples of him fighting great jabbers (Walcott Moore Charles and Lastarza). That’s Larry’s best weapon. I don’t see why anyone’s jab would bother him much. Explosive hookers like Foreman and Tyson would be difficult more then fighters like Holmes or even Ali when it comes to styles. This is a styles matchup we have evidence that Holmes didn’t like swarmers or pressure fighters. We have the opposite when it comes to Marciano and boxers. Marciano handled every boxer thrown his way prime or not and everyone of them had a much bigger reach. Do you think Charles or Walcott Moore didn’t have the skill to keep fighters back with their jab? Moore’s jab was top ten all time imo. You could say Marciano had more trouble with the boxer punchers then the boxers but I don’t think he would respect Larry much.
     
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  15. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Bergeron Avatar Club Full Member

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    Troll answer: Marciano was a modern lightheavyweight at best. Larry was a cruiser or maybe a small / mid sized heavyweight.

    Pound for pound, Marciano was likely better than Holmes because guys from the lighter weight classes generally are. :naughty2: