Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by cross_trainer, Nov 30, 2021.
Yes. Marciano ain't got the speed to trouble him.
A 50's ref would allow Holmes to get away with more than his standard amount of stiff arming, vision blocking, framing, etc. The rule-pushing things he normally did, he could do a lot more of with a 50's ref.
So I think a 50's ref there is maybe a wash.
I concede that Ken used a decent jab.
But Was Norton’s jab that evident against Larry?
The approach for each opponent differs. Ken was not going to outjab Larry. Nor would Rocky.
Against a boxer, Ken becomes the fighter, not unlike Marciano in stance..and so far as fighters go, Marciano was a superior in every way to Norton if 1978.
The 1978 Ken Norton was no faster footed or handed than Rocky Marciano.
Sticking to the fight with Holmes and how Ken fought that night, he stalked and stalked Larry cutting the ring at a snails pace. He was not closing the distance as fast as Rocky.
Ken dragged his right foot behind him, he did jab more than Rocky… but it’s the same kind of style. chin against his shoulder. Crab, cross arm defence. He threw over arm right hands, uppercuts and left hooks. The similarities are there. Different size obviously.. but different work rate and pace. Rocky was more intense. More accurate. Harder hitting and had by far the greater output.
Larry had a tremendous jab. The best. My favourite jab actually.
but apart for Joe Louis, who employed a good defensive jab against Rocky, that I think Marciano learned from, we never saw anyone dominate Rocky with the jab. And he fought good jabbers. Charles, Lastarza, Walcott and Moore.
of course Larry being Larry, with such a versatile jab, going forward and backward he can replicate Louis here, but only for a spell. Rocky ultimately closed Louis down, eventually shortening the distance and mauling old Joe right out of the fight.
There’s only so long a defensive jab is going to work on a chaser. As an old fighter Larry struggled to pin Tyson with Jabs. And although he earlier brutalised a mauling Leon Spinks, the jab was not overly instrumental in that outcome. Brawling fighters are harder to control with a jab and Marciano was a great Mauler.
I can make a good case for both fighters here… but Even if it is the best jab in history I really don’t think the jab is the best suited punch to control Rocky with. His whole style naturally negated jabs. He always fired back when he was caught. Once Rocky was hit he was hitting you back. And up at a closer distance.
Norton could occasionally outjab or beat Holmes to the punch. Rocky would swing punches like a baseball player from a mile away and even an old Jou Louis with diminished reflexes made him miss by FEET (not inches) stumbling from the force of his own punches and nearly giving himself a down. He did this as a rookie, as a contender in the aforementioned Louis fight, and even at his peak as a champion when he fought Moore. It's laughable to try and claim Rocky was faster and comparable to Norton in punching form.
Why do you insist on making absurd claims when we have footage? Rocky did not remotely look faster than Norton. Now if you mean strictly foot speed, I would agree with you as Norton was notorious for dragging his foot and stalking guys.
As for Norton vs Holmes, you need to watch that fight again. Holmes used excellent lateral movement, and was winning some rounds based on activity, but Norton was not just desperately following him in a straight line swinging at air. He threw very good sneaky body shots to slow Holmes down, partied the jab when he could, fired back with one of his won, and would Sometimes walk holmes into a corner ror the ropes to land a few digging hooks.
The only thing correct in your analysis is that Rocky would have closed the distance faster. However, Rocky would have also run into more jabs than Norton who had a tight cross guard and would party Holmes jab or trade jabs with him similar to the Ali bouts. Rocky did not have that luxury and would get blasted by at least 1/3 jabs (if not more, I'm being generous) and would run into a right uppercut or get clinched more often than not even if he did manage to get close. Because Norton was 6'3 with long Arms and Rocky smaller than the average cruiserweight with t rex arms. Even if Norton had less hand speed than his Holmes his height reach and timing made up for the difference.
Rocky was not some sort of expert of the cross defense, stop it. He was not an expert of any sort of defense. You're really reaching right now. And he certainly didn't have better accuracy than Norton. There is huge differences in their styles. Rocky was much more willing to slug it out or eat a shot to get close. As I said, Norton would likely have 2-3x as many stoppages as he did if he fought like Rocky.
Not necessarily. Rocky also twisted the rules by 80s standards. Without a 50s ref, he not only might get stopped by cuts, but also DQ'd for doing what he normally did.
I like Marciano's chances more with a 50s ref.
Funny how Ali himself said he didn’t know if he would have been able to beat Marciano but somehow Holmes a level below Ali (and Marciano imo) would easily dispatch him. That kind of thinking is what annoys Marciano fans the most
Ali sparred with a mid forties Marciano for there fake computer fight and made comment of Marcianos strength and ring cutting ability. Everyone commenting here should know Ali didn’t and never did shy away from saying he could beat anyone anytime. Marciano was the only guy in history he thought would trouble him.
I think these things need to be taken into consideration when assessing Marciano h2h. All of his best opponents were movers or good boxers. You people make a better argument against him when discussing someone like Foreman or Tyson or even Lewis for his size and power. Holmes Stylisticaly fits right into Marcianos hands. He always eventually caught up and broke down every mover boxer he faced. Holmes would be no different as he certainly doesn’t have the power of a Lewis to put him away. Just as he did Tyson and Frazier and even Holyfield to an extent.
I just want to commend you gentlemen (and others) for producing some technical analysis.
This vindicates my decision to set up the poll the way I did, broken down by boxing experience.
(The people who provided non boxing historical analysis did a great job too -- don't get me wrong -- but I like adding more technical critique.)
Holmes was never even listed with an 84" wingspan-you may be thinking of Liston-even though sometimes these things are exaggerated.
Surely you must mean that ROcky could not beat any WORLD CLASS fighter with an 84" reach, right?
I'm not sure on that, Gazelle. Shavers knocked the living bejesus out of Norton, far more devastatingly than Foreman did. Wiping out Ken even at that time (after giving prime Larry the fight of his life) was absolutely no joke.
Well as I mentioned in one of your other threads, my record is a mere 1-1 without any punches being thrown due to the first opponent backing out (a southpaw fellow from somewhere in Ohio), and then me backing out of the bracket due to a busy college schedule. I did go through some murderous sparring sessions in preparation for the tournament tho so I definitely understand boxing from a limited hands on perspective.
Choklab says some things that make me want to jump off a bridge at times, but he's one of the very few people who actually understand the fundamentals and mechanics of boxing. I freely admit I enjoy that aspect of our debates. It's different when someone is speaking from an outsiders perspective who's never actually trained or even had a spar.
Your technical 1-1 record still gets at what I'm trying to determine. It shows that there's a coach out there who concluded you were qualified to enter a formal match. And did so twice.
Same as I'm pretty sure djanders's military matches would count. (It sounds like they have their own parallel system?)
You do of course remember Larry has a very vicious uppercut?
If Holmes misses the jab, he can transition it into a stiff arm to line Rocky up for an uppercut. And then if Rocky insists on pressing the issue he can tie him up and then get on his bike after resetting to start the whole process over.