Rocky Marciano vs Larry Holmes, with poll

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by cross_trainer, Nov 30, 2021.

Who wins?

  1. Holmes wins, and I've had at least one boxing match

    46.4%
  2. Holmes wins, and I've never had a boxing match

    42.0%
  3. Marciano wins, and I've had at least one boxing match

    7.2%
  4. Marciano wins, and I've never had a boxing match

    1.4%
  5. I voted by mistake, so I'm changing my answer to this option

    2.9%
  1. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I have to give Marciano a chance because of reasonable triangulation-Frazier would likely beat him with relentless pressure, & swarmers have the stylistic advantage over boxers. And it seemed to go that way in sparring...

    However Marciano is smaller overall than Frazier, & the size gap with Holmes would likely make a difference.
    With all those jabs he would be eating & his skin he might cut badly.

    DJ Sanders at I believe 96 may well kick both of our asses-then have Crosstrainer for dessert.
    Even though the latter seems like a real fighter of sorts.
     
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  2. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Bergeron Avatar Club Full Member

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    How much do Marciano's rather dirty inside rough-housing, low center of gravity, and stubby arms help him against Larry's clinch strategy?
     
  3. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I forget which organization my amateur career was under. I had the forms in my dad's old car ages ago but I forget the logo it had an address and number and everything.

    I only called it quits eventually because my coach fell out with the gym owner over a girl in super tight booty shorts who didn't appreciate the coach making a comment about her outfit while she trained and went full feminazi mode demanding something be done about the coach (I kid you not). Didn't see the point in starting over with a new trainer who had a completely different philosophy and attitude...I had put in nearly 2 years of work and lost 30+ lbs running like a race horse. Honestly I was pissed.

    Not sure about the military, but perhaps they followed the same program that Norton and Weaver went through for their amateur matches (just googled, it's called "All army boxing"). Perhaps there is crossover for rankings, perhaps not. I know there's the golden gloves, college circuits, the AAU, etc. My brother won his local golden gloves. Oftentimes websites just combine the overall amateur record regardless of the organization.
     
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  4. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Bergeron Avatar Club Full Member

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    Yeah, that's pretty ridiculous. Sounds like a spoiled, entitled person.

    I don't come to gyms in booty shorts. I expect others to extend me the same courtesy.
     
  5. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I think Larry might actually be able to land his laser like right hand even if Rocky does his awkward crouching. He did after all demolish shorter opponents such as Leon or Weaver who tried to duck low and fight aggressively on the front foot. Larry's stiff arming and framing were not as brutish as Foreman, but they were effective and he wasn't shy when it came to wrestling either.

    I think what would give Holmes the most trouble would be the vicious blows to the body and the leaping gazelle punch since he often had one or both arms low. A traditional boxing stance head the forearms and elbows already in place to block body shots naturally and the hands are held high to anticipate or roll with wild shots to the head.

    With Larry however, he had to react at the last second to block and you can't always count on that even if you have great reflexes. 1, because Rocky threw odd shots that were often unorthodox or just plain wild, and 2, Rocky threw a lot of shots period. It's difficult to completely evade a sequence of 3, 4, 5+ punches from a relentless guy, even if that guy punching can be crude. Larry would need to fight smarter, not rougher, keeping the bout at a pace he's comfortable with and at his preferred range whenever possible.

    I think more often than not, Larry does just that and gets the nod or does enough damage to force a late stoppage with his sharp accurate blows building up damage over time. Tough as Rocky was, he had neither particularly great defense, nor great skin for boxing.
     
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  6. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    She wanted to have her cake and eat it too. It wasn't like this was a one time thing where she just didn't have anything to wear that day, she always had her hair done with clean new shoes and often wore fairly provocative clothes. I'm sure part of it was her genuinely wanting to be comfortable and to get in shape, but 9/10 you don't wear outfits like that unless you want attention. But she wanted to blow up like the guys there were pigs somehow.
     
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  7. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    C+ fighter lol I’m not sure if he beats Norton at his best. Man could sure hit though.
     
  8. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Addict Full Member

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    This I'm more sympathetic to. Few people would say Norton was prime against Shavers.
     
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  9. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    The 1978 version of Ken Norton, good fighter though he still was, did not look like a fast fighter against Larry. Ken was a plodder. No combinations. He just dragged that right foot along the floor as he walked holmes dien

    Norton was smart in those early rounds. He gave them all away but he was making Larry work like a mofo by cutting off the corners and forcing Larry to work like hell to get away. He made his punches count but the ratio was with Larry. He was landing a lot more trying to get away.He was draining Larry without doing anything. Which was good. But Marciano is clouting Holmes the whole time. There was nobody Rocky couldn’t hit and he always landed more than he received.



    Norton wore a welt under his eye from all the jabs he received from Larry. He caught a hell of a lot of jabs from long range in 78’. He was hanging at that range as he stalked Holmes. A range Marciano would break. Rocky would always be closer where there was far less room to extend a full jab.

    Larry can win this fight I have always said this. Can we acknowledge that he can also lose this fight?

    not necessarily true. Norton is not making up for a lack of output just by throwing less with longer arms. That’s not how it works. If the other guy is hitting you four to one then having the longer arms is still only helping him land one punch after receiving four blows. His output against Larry in 1978 was very low over the first half of the fight.

    Rocky was never willing to eat a shot. The guy landed more punches than he ever received. That’s how he won fights

    two or three times more stoppage losses if Ken fought like Rocky? I think he fought somewhat similar..without the pace power or durability. A better offence is a better defence. If you don’t think the added output of a Marciano like pace won’t improve Ken against Holmes then I don’t know what to say.
     
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  10. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Rocky had solid defense. We have had these convos though. Nice break down of what you think would happen even if I slightly disagree. Mainly I think Holmes would have a hard time keeping pace (you mentioned pace). He tired against Norton and Marciano worked harder and hit harder then Norton. I think Holmes wins most rounds before he gets stopped. I can’t see him finishing the fight.
     
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  11. JackSilver

    JackSilver Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Holmes would’ve thumbed him to death with a 50s ref in charge
     
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  12. Pugguy

    Pugguy Active Member Full Member

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    I would love to see vision of Joe’s sparring sessions with Larry. I believe they were in prep for the rematch with Ali unless other instances exist. There’s a lot of unedited training footage from the 70s being uploaded these says so we never know our luck.

    True, @djanders (really, 96 yo? That’s amazing) may well eat us both for dinner but, @cross_trainer might not appreciate being relegated to the even more easily devoured dessert - but it is what it is.

    The least we can hope for is some uncomfortable indigestion afterward if djanders swallows us whole without due mastication.

    I have a heavy bag, speed bag, floor to ceiling etc. at home. I used it all to keep in trim and practice the shots I’ve seen executed by the ATGs. These accessories don’t hit back - which is a good thing though the floor to ceiling, in its erratic movements, has snuck in a few sneaky love taps when I haven’t been on my game. Suffice to say, it has been made to pay dearly for its impudence and I always wear head gear just in case it gets cute in the future.

    Strangely, all this makes me think of poor Ad Wolgast post career. Suffering pugilistica dementia at a ridiculously young age, 32? - he was taken in by a friend who set up a gym to allow Ad to continue under the delusion that he was still training as a viable contender/title holder.
     
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  13. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    He pole axed Lee Savold who was below him at #3 to cement his position.

    Here's a rundown of the fight from it's actual time which sounds like a real bang on performance -

    JOE LOUIS KNOCKS OUT LEE SAVOLD in SIXTH ROUND TREMENDOUS OVATION FROM CROWD
    NEW YORK, June 16 (AAP.).

    Joe Louis, looking like the "Brown Bomber" of old, knocked out Lee Savold In the sixth round of their 15 round bout in Madison Square Garden last night. It was a sensational win for Louis, who is in better form than at anytime since Ezzard Charles won the championship from him. The crowd gave Louis a tremendous ovation as he strode from the ring. Louis had cut down Savold methodically. His left jab was at its best. He seldom missed his mark, and he often followed it up with a stunning right uppercut a part of a three-punch combination that ended with another hook. Louis looked almost as good as in his championship days. Louis' aggressiveness reached its climax in the sixth round. He had pounded away at Savold with left jabs and hooks from the first round, and the opportunity came in the sixth when he swung Savold almost off his feet with a savage right.The crowd roared in anticipation,and Louis, sensing a kill, stepped in with a powerful left hook that sent Savold to the canvas. Savold, shaking his head, made a frantic effort to regain his feet, but he was still unable to make it when the referee counted him out.

    REAL COURAGE

    Savold, who is recognised in Britain as the world heavweight champion, was no match for Louis. He could not land his own left jabs or
    hooks on Louis. Savold's greatest virtue was his courage: he constantly tried to fight back though his nose bled so freely it must have been difficult for him to breathe. Only in the fifth round did Savold appear to bother Louis. He shook the big ----- with a long right-hand punch to the jaw. Both judges and referee agreed Louis won all rounds. Louis now is due to meet Charles in September ta try to regain the championship he gave up on his first "retirement" in 1949.
     
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  14. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Very good post. Nice to see the opinion of that time.
     
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  15. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    very hard to hit with the jab. Film proves it.
     
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