rocky marciano vs larry holmes

Let's talk about Marciano's punching power for a bit. Thought this was a little strange:

Moore: rocky ko round 9
Others: patterson round 5, morrow round 1, charles round 8, bivins round 6, booker round 8

Moore was ranked high enough to fight for the vacant belt and was a 9-5 favorite so spare me the "rocky ruined him and he had nothing left" lines. Bovine had a pathetic 28% ko ratio. I didnt include Ali's knockout since Moore had no business being in a boxing ring at that point.

Lastarza: rocky tko round 11
Others: Mederos round 5

Notes: Life magazine reported: "Trying to knock the challenger out with one punch, the 29-year-old Marciano was over-eager and awkward. He lunged, butted, hit below the belt, on the break and after the bell. Once, he swung so wildly that he missed and slipped clumsily to the canvas. Outboxing the champion and avoiding his blows, LaStarza managed to win four of the first six rounds. In the seventh, Marciano changed his tactics, started aiming at LaStarza's body as well as his head in an attempt to wear the challenger down. He succeeded."

The referee took the sixth round away from Marciano for a low blow"

So despite blatantly fouling headbutts, low blows, hitting on break and after the bell, it took a prime in shape rocky 11 rounds to wear this guy down.

Cokkel: rocky tko round 9
Others: Lave round 2, valdes round 3, turpin round 11, slade round 4, wilson round 6, williams round 2, Goodwin round 7, Taylor round 6

Notes: rocky hit the guy while he was down. Slade had an amazing 18% ko ratio. Taylor's was 26%. Note once again that some of these opponents stopped a younger, fresher version of cokkel in a faster time frame than rocky.

Walcott: rocky ko 13
Others: Louis round 11, simon round 6, jack fox round 8, ettore round 8,

Note: a lot of the people who kod Walcott did so the same way rocky did, a right cross. Strange that a prime rocky needed 13 rounds to get him out of there. Also note ettore had a 24% ko ratio and fought a younger less worn out version of Walcott.

Savold: rocky round 6
Others: Louis round 6, ray round 2, bobo round 2, Franklin round 2, valin round 6, brubaker round 3, wenstob round 8, fritz round 4, Maier round 1

Notes: rocky, as usual, fought an opponent who was on the verge of retirement. Rocky was so sloppy he fell to the canvas while punching at Savold and couldn't floor Savold once. Louis, bobo, Franklin, valin (25% ko ratio) and Maier knocked savold out clean. Brubaker had him down 6x.

Charles: rocky ud 15, ko round 8 (2nd time)
Others: Logan round 8, fleeman round 6, young jack Johnson round 6, holman round 9, walcott round 7, Marshall round 8

Marciano ties with 2 and only does better than 1. Note that Marshall had a pretty low 36% ko ratio, logan had 44%, Holman had a 36%, and johnson had a mere 29%. No percentages arent everything but they generally give a good indicator of someones power. The fact they did better or tied with rocky despite having less raw talent and skill is a little strange, especially because charles is supposed to be one of the greatest fighters ever. Some of them also fought a younger less worn version of charles than rocky did.


I could go on, but these opponents are generally regarded as Marciano's best wins. Would anyone care to explain why "inferior" boxers were able to score faster KO's/stoppages than rocky despite facing younger/less worn out versions of the exact same opponent? I am not trying to suggest rocky was feather fisted, obviously he had power, but how much? And it makes me really question the revisionist who try to act like he had such amazing technique and finishing ability--or the people who act like he was this 1 punch ko artist when the stats seem to indicate he was clearly a volume puncher. Doesnt make him a horrible boxer, it might just mean that he wasnt what his fans claim he was.

 

No shame for sure Kev. We are a fair distance apart from what we see in both Leon Spinks and Marciano.

 

What else are you supposed to think of a championship level boxer who has numerous brutal knockouts on film?
Matthews?
Walcott?
Layne?
Louis?

Which other championship level HWs power would we question if they scored knockouts like those?
And on top of it, having an immaculate KO% in their resume.
And we only have less than 20% of his entire career on film.

He didn't KO everyone quicker than other fighters? So what?
Have you checked to see if other notable power punchers didn't KO their opponents the quickest too?
What are you measuring this against, and what kind of standard are you setting?

 

What recent champs have had such soft touches as that crew you list?

Please. I could name a dozen belt holders who would plow viciously thru that list (in the form that Marciano faced).

Harry Matthews? Really? Frans Botha would blow that guy out of the water.

 

Bruh Holmes is like Michael Jordan to Rocky's DeAndre Jordan.

 

A dozen isn't a lot.
Also, this has nothing to do with the point.

 

Seamus - what exactly has caused such an about face on a Holmes - Marciano match from your earlier years on here?

Years back you were heartily endorsing Ted Spoon's account above that this fight would be hotly contested and a war. Some of his projections are actually quite similar to what others have been ridiculed for in this thread.

 

It is interesting, but as a Holmes sycophant myself, nice to see.

I am not much of a fan of Larry's "jockstrap" thing. For a fan like me, hearing him say that was both astonishing (Holmes in his prime had a complaining side but was generally a low-key gentleman) and, if you ask me, shamefully unthinking. It might very well have lost him a fight that he obviously won.

 

The point is not only were these men not particularly difficult to KO, other "inferior" fighters did so faster or more impressively. Anyone can have a highlight reel over men who were relatively easy to stop, yet marciano still took longer and he's supposed to be a devastating 1 punch ko artist according to his fans.

He clearly wasn't.

And as i pointed out in the Savold and moore fights, marciano is extremely sloppy missing many punches on a stationary target (swinging so hard he falls over). Thats not the behavior of a great "finisher", he basically bludgeoned his opponents into submission. You say we only have access to 20% of his fights, yet the film we do have is of his prime on his way to the title and afterwards. Do you think his technique and power would look more impressive when he was fighting cans early in his career?

Do you think other atg punchers wouldn't have a high ko% with Marciano's competition? And that's not even getting into the fact tje majority of them were under 200 lbs and rarely over 6 feet.

 

The bottom line is that Rocky Marciano has the highest KO% of any heavyweight champion bar none.

This means that you can't really criticize him for failing to stop certain opponents, without criticizing every other heavyweight champion by implication.

You could argue that he needed rounds to put people away, but he was still getting the job done within the distance, one way or another.

You could criticize his opposition, but weak eras are ten a penny.

If his level of opposition was enough to explain it, then somebody else would have replicated it.

They could even have avoided a few key contenders to give them a bit of an edge.

The bottom line is that you are trying to make a silk purse into a sows ear in this thread.

I am not a big fan of KO% as a stat, but I don't think that the man with the best KO% in the history of the division, should be particularly vulnerable to criticism for not putting opponents away!

 

Rocky had a lot of cannon fodder to bolster his ko stats.This is an established fact.

 

Yes but he is by no means unique in this regard among the pantheon of heavyweight champions.

That is not in itself enough to explain his stats.

It is not even like he was avoiding the #1 contenders and champion.

I personally find Joe Louis and Wladamir Klitschko's KO stats far more impressive, but that is a debate for another day.

 

It's the opposite actually. As i said, the "impressive" highlight reel of ko victims obviously werent particularly difficult opponents to stop. Some were kod 6, 7, 8+ times yet marciano often took longer to get it done than fighters who were less talented, less successful than he was.

I'm not suggesting he was feather fisted, but those numbers clearly indicate 3 things:

-he was more of an attrition/volume puncher

-his technique and finishing ability were pretty bad

-his competition was pretty weak--made worse by the fact his opponents were older and more shopworn when they faced marciano than when they were stopped in a quicker time frame by common opponents!

 

Marciano was a tremendous puncher for his size,but opponents of his often claim they were hit harder by others.
Moore said Durelle hit him harder.Charles said Satterfield for one hit him harder.Layne said Louis hit harder which admittedly seems strange.Cokkell said several hit him harder but not so often.Lastarza said he was hit harder by others. I doubt Marciano hit any harder than Satterfield and possibly no one around his weight ever did ,including Langford, but Bob was fragile because he left himself exposed to shots and was a party animal.
As for stats Moore has an impressive ko% and he certainly hit hard, but half of his kos are over light heavies and middles, and there is a lot of dross on his record.

 

These facts jump off the page at you if you look objectively at his record, but some fans just willfully refuse to accept them!
For the most part Rocky ground you down, similar to Frazier.
They have constructed a mythical status around Marciano ,and any comment that is less that 100% positive becomes heresy immediately it is posted.