rocky marciano vs larry holmes

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by bbox71, Aug 31, 2019.


  1. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Well-Known Member Full Member

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    How many champions truly have a better record then Marciano? Competition wise? Off the top of my head Ali, Louis, maybe Holyfield def fought everyone, Frazier is a toss up, idk not many truth be told. Everyone has aging champs and a few bums on the resume. Everyone. Klitschko fought a long time but what p4p great did he ever beat? Holmes best wins were against an older Norton and Shavers and talk about ancient Ali. Lewis avoided a lot of people till they were old. Beating an old Tyson and old Holyfield. Liston has a lot of solid in prime wins so I’ll toss him in there. And FYI Marciano had plenty of skills...maybe you just refuse to admit it. Probably the best stamina of any HW, unique style causing difficulties for his opponents with his awkwardness. Power in both hands, etc.
     
  2. Seamus

    Seamus Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I will always give credit to the Rock for beating everyone who was available during his short window in what was considered elite boxing at the time. That is the entire basis of his greatness.

    However, it was a short window and an even smaller sample size, almost uniformly smaller than what came later (this is important when comparing to later fighters like Holmes), and uniformly older. That era was at best "transitional"... full of old guys trying to make a last stand and some nohopers like Coccell and LaStarza trying to cash in on their opportunities. And then it was gone. Then we had Liston, the we had Ali and the division was forever changed.
     
  3. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    There is a type of modern fight fan, who thinks that size is everything when if favors the modern fighter, but that it counts for nothing when the old timer has the size advantage.

    For example they would pick Hasim Rahman to beat Rocky Marciano based on size, but Roy Jones would be a sure thing against Primo Carnera!
    FFS, not one person favoring Holmes has discussed the interaction of boxing styles, in this entire thread!

    All we get is:

    Holmes is too big.

    Marciano is crude.

    Shavers couldn't win with one random hail Mary punch, so there is not route to victory for Marciano.

    Marciano's opponents were old.

    I have practically had to explain what a swarmer is, and how the style works!
     
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  4. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    That is debatable, many including myself would give Joe an edge.
     
  5. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    Any version of Joe from 68-71 would probably grind even a great boxer like Larry down. Just my view others may differ there. Also the 75 version of Joe in Manilla would have been a nightmare of Holmes. He doesn't have the power to consistantly back Joe up. Its gonna be trench warfare
     
  6. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Fair enough
     
  7. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Holmes was under appreciated in his own time, but at the same time there were some good reasons for that.

    He is the third longest reigning champion in the history of the sport, but he never once defended against the #1 contender, and he handed belts over without a fight!

    Marciano, who apparently couldn't carry his jockstrap, only once defended against somebody who was not the current #1 contender!

    Not hard to see which of them was more confident, in their ability to manage the available opposition!

    It is good that Holmes is finally getting his due, but let's not build him into something that he wasn't!
     
  8. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member Full Member

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  9. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Its a good thing we have you here to explain to us ignorant crew what a swarmer is.
     
  10. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Me calling rocky clumsy and sloppy is nothing new or unique. Nat Fleischer and walcott both used similar adjectives. Even your boy gazelle punch admitted rocky wad a sloppy slugger who relied on volume. The numbers speak for themselves, he took longer to beat older versions of fighters other opponents stopped much easier. He literally flung himself to the ground swinging at Savold. Stop being disingenuous. I happen to like wilder and i have no problem admitting he is very sloppy at times.

    Anyway, let's compare other punchers:

    Tyson: he kod tillman, Stewart, Williams, Mathis Jr, Bruno, Nielsen, savarese, spinx, and holmes faster than ANY common opponent. Marvis frazier was a tie with Holmes and seldon was a tie with bowe--both of them 1st round KO's. He was the only man to ko spinx and Holmes.

    When it comes to early round destruction, wether its tomato cans, journeyman, or name/rank opponents, tyson was the most efficient knockout artist in heavyweight history.

    And if you think im picking on marciano or old school boxers lets look at Joe Louis,

    KO'd: Schmeling, Conn, buddy Baer, Godoy, Galento (tied with gainer), sharkey, max baer faster than any common opponent. He was the only man to KO Braddock, Max Baer, Buddy Baer, and Uzcudun.

    I could go on. Off the top of my head, I know for a fact Liston, Foreman, and Lennox Lewis all have kos faster than several of their common oponents and have each stopped durable opponents other fighters couldn't stop.

    The point being, Marciano took longer to stop men who were not only older and more shopworn, they were stopped by other fighters of HIS era much faster. In other words we dont have to use a lot of imagination to guess if Tyson or Lewis would KO cokkel faster than marciano if a guy like Jimmy Slade could get it done in 4 rounds.

    Marciano simply isn't this devastating super duper 1 punch ko artist in light of all these stats and numbers. Either Marciano's power is overrated or his skill/efficiency/finishing ability is just plain bad and he has to simply overwhelm with sheer volume. Or both.
     
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  11. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Rocky was sloppy and a volume puncher...but I also said he of course had one punch KO power. He knocked out people an average of four rounds...that is fast enough to be ranked in the top five or six ever. To say he didn’t have one punch kO power is disingenuous. Marciano also KO people who were never KO before some of whom kept fighting but weren’t the same. LaStarza and Layne were two prime fighters who come to mind. Tyson failed to KO and lost to Douglas while Holyfield destroyed Douglas in 3. Should Tyson’s KO ability be brought to question? The answer is no. Sometimes fighters have great nights sometimes poor . I can imagine challengers like ****ell are bringing their best fight night in hopes of winning. ****wll was out on his feet sadly long before it was called. I haven’t seen anyone refer to Marciano as the most powerful ever or this and that I don’t see why people can’t admit he had one punch power in each hand lol. It’s like it’s difficult for people to admit to. He was short of arm and learning on the go. So at times probably took longer to get slick boxers out of there then it should have . How many ATG could have started fighting at 25 and still did what he did?
    y
     
  12. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Well-Known Member Full Member

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    So you are admitting marciano was a volume puncher who needed to break a guy down with volume?

    Kind of strange of you to say strategy#1 would be less efficient when we saw tyson use it! Nobody broke holmes down with swarming and volume in 75 fights! You keep insisting on labeling Holmes an outside mover and the ultimate kryptonite is swarming and yet it never worked on him!

    So you are admitting marciano was a volume puncher who needed to break a guy down with volume?

    Kind of strange of you to say strategy#1 would be less efficient when we saw tyson use it! Nobody broke holmes down with swarming and volume in
    You mean like Lamar Clark, Shannon Briggs, Deontay Wilder, etc...?

    What stats are you referring to? Beating up older fighters? Taking longer to stop fighters who have been stopped multiple times already? Not having any prime opponents over 6'1 in the freaking heavyweight division?

    Feel free to make a thread. Joe and rocky are 2 different fighters so how you think joe would do against Holmes has nothing to do with how rocky would. And it's off topic anyway.

    I thought you meant Joe Louis not Joe Frazier lol.

    Anyway, no marciano did not have better stamina than Frazier. At best you could argue a tie. Joe was getting tied up, leaned on, and hit by men who were usually 205-210+. It never slowed him down, in fact he got busier as the fight went on.

    Frazier had a better chin too. Yes i said it. Frazier is probably the only boxer with the determination to get up 6x against Foreman. I see that fight as proof you woukd need a sledgehammer to give Frazier a 10 count. That was also the only opponent to stop Frazier and he happens to be possibly the #1 hitter of all time. Marciano would be unconscious in 2 minutes.

    Dont even get me started on technique. Fraziers bob and weave was superior to rockts crouch. Frazier seamlessly went high and low between body and head. He could string together powerful combinations and was much crisper.

    Rocky had to rely on sheer numbers and occasionally fouls to get the job done, hoping that his granite chin and workrate would bail him out. He was behind against Walcott and lastarza. The Lowry fight was a dubious decision.

    Like i said, marciano only has power ober Frazier and a better right hand.
     
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  13. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Both lastarza and layne were stopped by other opponents wtf are you talking about lol?

    Most of Rockys early round kos were against bums. Shannon Briggs, shavers, and wilder have him beat in those categories. Against ranked fighters or journeyman, Marciano's stoppage times get later, and later. Coincidence...?

    Frazier also has some early round kos but no one calls him a 1 punch ko artist! He's a swarmer, just like rocky.
     
  14. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Well-Known Member Full Member

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    LaStarza and Layne were NEVER stopped until they met Marciano. They were stopped after they were ruined already. Briggs and wilders wins can’t even compare to Marciano’s stop the insanity.
    and
     
  15. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Well-Known Member Full Member

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    This is not just an exaggeration, it's a flat out lie.

    Golden feather did an excellent break down of Holmes' style and why it would cause problems even against swarmers.

    This content is protected


    I followed it up with several posts of my own

    You kept going on about how rocky would "obviously" get past the jab and get in range and force an in fight because "rock paper scissors" and "no swarmer would win a belt without being able to get past a jab" and other such nonsense. You ignored what we wrote over and over again.

    Literally no one replying has said "Holmes wins because he was just too big and strong".
     
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