Rocky Marciano vs Lennox Lewis

His stamina must have been exceptionally poor to gas in only one round against Quarry then.

If you concede that these fights were "fixed" then mention of them does Ali no service.

An excellent win against one of the best punchers of all time. But that doesn't exclude Foreman's short cummings nor does it negate my initial point that Lewis fought MORE punchers regardless of quality.

Incorrect.. It was a FIFTH round technical stoppage.. And stander was stopped 9 times in his career and regularly beaten by journeyman..

How many of those did he stop? How many of them were ranked at the time? Shavers is about the only one I can think of and Lyle was getting his **** kicked before shavers gassed enough to fall over.. Bugner fight could have gone either way and wasn't a stoppage.. And Scott Ledoux was a journeyman who decked Lyle and may very well have been robbed. None of the above credits lyle as being a great puncher.

And who's last three wins going into the Ali fight were Mike Boswell, Billy Joiner, and Giuseppe Ross.. Ever hear of these guys?

And if I wanted to use the Mongoose method of debate I could just as easily turn around and say that Jerry never hit Muhammad with anything significant.. But instead I'll just credit him as being a "decent" hitter.. But not a great one.

Patterson was already five years removed from the Ingo fights when he fought Ali for the time, and had back pain going into it... He was 37 and on the comeback trail for the rematch. At under 200 lbs and with a glass chin I seriously doubt Floyd would have made very many waves in the 90's and 2000's.

Yes when Ali was 21 years old with umpteen number of fights and likely complacent. Not to mention having a soft spot for left hooks making it more of a stylistic issue than a power one. Cooper's wins were mostly over Euro level journeyman. BTW Brian London was stopped 11 times in his career and his rematch with Cooper, took him 15 rounds..

 

This is what you have become, Magoo? You make an ironic comment about my junk out of the blue and insist my equally ironic response is literal so you can question my orientation because you don't like my responses. Keep it classy.

Difference...Tua actually was fat as he didn't train by his own admission. Liston was his usual solid self. And had obliterated Patterson after a longer lay off. Shavers on camera hit the well past prime Ali flush in early rounds...gassing in previous fights not a factor.

Tell Bobick Norton wasnt a puncher.

No, no argument fotlr Lewis over Ali here.

 

So is the argument now who beat the most so called punchers? Not faced?

So what are really crediting Lewis with here...blow outs over Razor, Grant, Morrison, and Golota? Really evidence of Lewis having a talent for disposing vulnerable fighters than a talent for handling punchers.

If Morrison, a retired Mason, fat Tua...etc are gonna be listed for Lewis. Fat Douglas gets a nod.

Sultan was a puncher. Cooper was a puncher.

 

Okay.. let's drop the "junk" comments.

Fine.

You can't accuse Tua of not training then ignore the issues concerning another fighter. Can't have it both ways.. Liston was reported as being 32 years of age but has long been speculated as being as old as 35. He had fought ONE round of boxing in 17 months and was at a then career high of 218 lbs.. I read in ring magazine many years ago that his management was actually paying his sparring partners to go slow with him in sparring. And come fight night he quit in his corner.. The only thing he had going with him was the recognition that he was still the "champ" and heavily favored to kill Ali.. But you know as well as I do that these things often belie the truth of the matter..I'll take Tua with a few extra pounds..

Never questioned his power.. Only started calling out his shortcomings when you selectively started ripping apart Lewis's opponents and with Shavers its pretty easy to reciprocate so I went with it.

Bobick will also tell you that John Tate and George Chaplin were punchers too :good

We're going to have to agree to disagree then.. If you want to say that Ali fought a select FEW men who hit a BIT harder, then I'll concur.. But if we make two long lists of men who could crack for both Ali and Lewis, then Lewis's list will no doubt be longer... And side stepping the issue by tearing opponents down or masking things by saying this one was "better" than that one won't change the fact.

 

Why don r we just agree that Lewis was in the ring with a lot of bangers perhaps as many as Ali perhaps not. Because at the end of the day it doesn't change anything. The point is Lewis faced a lot of punchers and if his chin was as ****oy as many say he wouldn't have the record he had. Holyfield stopped Tyson ffs and rocked Bowe but did neither against Lewis so had bad could Lewis' chin have been?

 

I'll concede that George Foreman and Earnie shavers "probably" hit harder than anyone Lewis ever fought.. But that's kind of an iffy claim given that raw power is difficult to measure. Hell Frank Bruno might have hit just as hard as anyone in history for all we know. But if we are talking about shear "volume" and not cherry picking names then I don't see how any other heavyweight in history can claim to have fought more punchers or men who could crack.. You can shlt all over guys like Mason, Morrison, Ruddock, etc, all you want to. You can say how Lewis beat them without tasting their power or that they didn't hit as hard as Shavers, Forman or Nat king cole. You can say that they sucked, were out of shape, got visited the night before by little green men who told them to lose.. Whatever..... But at the end of the day, those guys WERE punchers and they have to be counted.

 

Wrong, Liston previous career high was 219,

Liston gained 3 pounds since Patterson 2, and was back to 215 for the rematch. In the previous 5 years, Liston weight never fluculated outside of the 211 to 219 range. That is incredible. Especially if you want us to accept him as being older.

Tua in just two years leading up to Lewis, fluculated over 30 pounds....all fat. He claimed an injury prevented him from training for Lewis. But had already blew up to sumo proportions.

Shavers was flawed, but more proven efficient and deadlier than Morrison, Briggs...etc

So should we not credit any of the guys on Lewis resume as punchers if their signature blow out win was knocked out again by lesser men as their career wrapped?

Not a select few, more overall. And yes, details are important, tgars why I called the claim blanket and meaningless. Since your basically just accepting a list at name value.

 

This "who faced the harder puncher" debate is a tangent to the issue of Lewis's chin. You can subtitute "Lewis faced more punchers than anyone in history" with Lewis was in the top 3 jn terms of the power punches he faced and it doesn't change the fact that (a) his chin wasn't as bad as advertised and (b) if his defensive skills and offensive skills helped him secure a few of these wins then that's the skill set he brings into the ring when debating who's likely to beat who.


There's really no other way to look at this.

 

The claim is just as much hyperbole as the glass chin claim.

I'm not really impressed with a list that asks you to accept Grant and Golota as threatening punchers...they really weren't by heavyweight standards. Or a list that makes thrashing Morrison or Briggs out to be something more than it was. Seriously, a guy with 7 career ko losses won a slug fest with Briggs.

What should be discussed is Lewis ability to absorb flush punches and recover against relatively good punchers in Holyfield, Vitali, and Mercer from my memory. If you don't put him out, he can recover and survive. But he can be put out by lesser punchers. So suspect durability but not bad at all, and he had the talent to not have to even rely on durability.

 

Who fought MORE punchers? I don't care about who was BETTER or what the details of the scenario were.. Who fought MORE?