Rocky Marciano vs Lennox Lewis

Which he managed to avoid for many many years. Not a big fan of his, but I don't think getting to his chin was all that easy to do. I think fighters like Lewis and other tall elite fighters could do it, but not the crop of fighters he fought.

What I don't understand is this.

There are weight classes in boxing for a reason, if size doesn't matter get ride of them, and if size doesn't matter, than why are fighters in the lower weights dehydrating themselves to make weight and some coming into a match 10-15lbs more than they weighed on the scales. Why do any of this if weight doesn't matter?

If it does matter, than what is so special about a 200lb cut weight for heavyweights?

One has to assume that all things being equal, a 250lb fighter with the same skillset, and it also taller, strong and has a longer reach, is going to have numerous advantages over the smaller fighter, this is still likely to be the case even it the smaller fighter is marginally more skilled than the bigger fighter.

For it not to be true, the smaller fighter is going to have to have a very significant skill advantage over the larger fighter in order to negate the natural advantages a bigger fighter has.

Dempsey obviously had those skill advantages over Willard, but he certainly doesn't have them over Lewis, neither does Marciano and Frazier. Louis would be the only pre 60 fighter that I think a case can be made.

 

He might have fought a lot more often but he didn't fight half as good as the likes of Lennox Lewis.

Lewis also beat smaller fighters throughout his career, maybe the bigger fighters didn't shine because no trainers out there knew how to develop them in the same way as a Manny Steward? Or maybe the number of bigger fighters entering the game rose massively thus leaving a much bigger selection to potentially reach the top.

You talk as though Foreman purposely came back at that size, more likely he was a greedy lard **** who wanted to make a dollar or two?

 

Good point there is a larger pool of giants now so the odds of a capable giant emerging is now much better.

 

I lean the other way, the fighters I pick out of those are Dempsey and Frazier. You've got to have speed of foot IMO to get in there and do the damage. Plodders like Louis and Marciano would be picked off with ease and knocked out quickly IMO.

 

That's a reasonable point.

 

Lewis was a talented fighter but I wonder how awkward he might have looked chasing smaller seasoned young fighters around the ring? He no doubt would throw faster lighter swiping blows without following through that were harder to counter and less likely to leave him facing the wrong way if he missed. If you start out like that and don't come up against more guys closer to your size then you concentrate on what works , and so does the trainer!

yes and he often looked a bit clumsy when he did. Jean Chanet and Ossie Ocassio early on were awkward wins for him.

No. The trainers were excellent then. They trained fighters to do what it took to be successful then and there was an awful lot more competative layers within skill levels throughout all divisions. Fighters fought more often. More cards in more towns. Regional, national, international. Boxing was bigger then. You can't reinvent the wheel.

:good this is what I think it is. More guys that Big developing against each other. That's how the art boxing develops within competition. Manny Steward cannot take credit for this. A fighter needs to learn against men of an equal or bigger size to himself to become a complete boxer. Primo rarely found opponents of a simular dimension to himself (although Godfrey and Impletere among others were simular) so he made do with what worked against smaller foes. He might have looked awful but it worked. poking and swiping at half force was what it took because however well schooled fully leveraged blows were always going to be too slow and telegraphed against a smaller guy.

He was a greedy lard **** who wanted to make a dollar or two but returning to boxing within an era where a strong old guy could still make an impression really was a factor also.

 

Without Lewis around the heavyweight or should I say superheavyweight division is starting to look more "Oaf like" than ever. I'm tired of people saying Louis and Dempsey would not be champions now. I actually think guys like Tex Cobb and Chuck Wepner would look great now.

 

I cannot really argue with this. Potentially you might be on to something, certainly regarding other sports. Do we know if the giant can actually do everything smaller men can do in the ring?

Logically it is the competition that makes greAt fighters. It's not so much to do with the people growing bigger and the chances of getting more talent through sheer numbers.

Great fights make the great fighters and to have great fights you need competition. Certainly a weight class worth of giants will represent enough competition to develop excelent fighters seasoning themselves against each other but I'm not sure they can yet be as athletically gifted without seeing more giants who fight like a Joe Louis or a Muhammad Ali. I am seeing a lot of Willard types though.

but why only five are heavyweights? I think in the past there might have been more top class fighters in the highest weight class than just 5.

 

I totally agree that all things being equal the bigger fighter should win.

I'd expect Leonard to beat Pep for example.

However I would expect Saddler to beat Cory Spinks for example.

The way I see it is this, Marciano beat Shkor who was a SHW so the question steps being about size and starts being about skill. We know he can beat a fringe contender who's a SHW, you then have to wonder if he'd be good enough to beat an actual contender with those dimensions and then wonder if he could beat a champion with those dimensions.

Let's put into perspective with today. It's like someone beating say Tony Thompson now, you then have to wonder could they then beat a Pulev and then a Wlad and then a Fury. Obviously the gradations of skill level increase each time so it's the question of how good does the big man have to be to beat the little man.

Once you believe Rocky is better p4p and has beaten a SHW before it just becomes a question of style and skill as the big men get better. For me the best ever 190 HW champ was Holyfield and whilst he couldn't overcome Lewis he was past his best and maybe in his prime he'd have pushed him closer. And if Holy can push him close how close can Rocky push him?

There's a lot of variables to consider. Ultimately I don't see past a Lewis victory but it isn't a mismatch imo.

 

But it's getting on for decades since we had a giant fight as well as well Lewis and Bowe.

What I want to know is where was the 6'5" boxers before 1985? I remember Truth Williams looking like a new kind of heavyweight then all of a sudden we quickly had Biggs and Tucker then Bowe and Lewis.

These guys began boxing under 225lb which gave them the movement required to box like bigger versions of lighter fighters but just as quickly as they appeared, gaining weight became in vouge. We saw an end to the renaissance of tall box fighters at heavyweight and the beginning of the SHW.

I would like to think that the lightest versions of Bowe, Lewis (and Tucker Biggs and Williams for that matter) were better athletes than the modern SHW.

I am not sure 250 is really an improvement on the 220 6'5" boxer who with 24 hour weigh in could make cruiser today.

 

This is exactly where I stand.:good

 

There is no way Povetkin today would be a CW, never mind Deontay Wilder.

A fighter who is 250 and has good control of range and is allowed to clinch and has quick reflexes will be very difficult to defeat. Because of how heavy they are and because of the style clash a lighter man will be either walking into jabs or expending lots of energy avoiding them jabs and they get inside just to be met with a clinch.

If the man is drained and lighter they won't be strong enough in the clinch and will instead have to exchange inside which not many SHW fighters are capable of doing. Why would Wlad give up that strength inside when he has no skills inside?

Drain Wlad down and force him to fight inside and he will get knocked out. Almost everyone he faced got past the jab at some point in the fight hence his clinching, if instead he has to swap punches it won't end well.

Don't get me wrong, I would love for referees to punish clinching, it should be a defensive last resort, not an offensive tactic.

 

I think SHW skilled fighters are definitely more prevalent now in terms of utilising their advantages and fighting to strengths.

The lack of infighting ability does trouble me though as a fan because it removes excitement from certain fights.