I so totally agree with you. It's blatantly obvious. I re-watched Marciano - Louis today for the second time in 8 months or so to re-affirm what i said back then in a thread. Complete 180 degree changes of opinion are common over a short period of time too apparently.
It is frustrating. Fantasy match ups should have their own separate forum imo. It's annoying missing a good thread because it went to page 2 in half a day, blocked by 13 heavyweight h2h battles .
I could get on board with that. The board is about 90% heavyweight stuff i reckon without thinking too hard about it. Marciano remains the most heavily scrutinised and talked about fighter on here. He could almost have his own sub-forum. Most posters sit at either end of the spectrum with one end of the spectrum more heavily laden than the other and not necessarily the end most claim if that makes sense. It's great to see you and McGrain posting a little more in Classic let that be said.
I don't think you know what "cop out" means. what I'm saying is that you constantly falling back on Rocky not being in his prime despite winning the title less than a year after the Louis fight. And Even after winning the title many opponents landed jabs on rocky, messed up his eye, and had success keeping him at bay for a while. Let me clarify: I am NOT saying Carners will simply stick his jab out and Rocky will be completely helpless and unable to to anything whatsoever to avoid them or get inside. But to act like Carnera's jab will be a non factor and that Rocky "easily" neutralized it would be equally silly and illogical. Charles was not having and keeping Marciano away from him, they had a scrappy fight at close and mid range. Charles used angles, defense, and counters to survive. Carnera is not going to be engaging with Rocky on the inside so this is an irrelevant point. Walcott made Marciano look stupid on the outside with his great footwork and jab. He lasted 13 rounds before Rocky eventually landed that famous Suzie Q. Carnera will not be using cagey technique and fancy footwork, but he will be fighting on the outside and using a jab like Walcott did. Not sure why it's not clicking in your head that if a 6 ft Walcott was able to land many jabs and keep Rocky from simply bulldozing him then carnera should at least have some success doing the same with his enormous height and reach. Do you think it's HARDER for a much taller man to keep a short opponent from getting inside? Moore was using his crab defense to roll with shots and then land sneaky counters and pick his shots carefully. His game plan was not focused primarily on the jab. Tyson, Tua, and Frazier beat actual super heavy sized fighters, Rocky didn't. All 3 had faster hands and were anywhere from 30-40 lbs heavier and were more skilled than Rocky. Tyson and Frazier in particular had great defense and head movement and were able to time their taller opponents. Not only that, they often had to really hammer away at the body downstairs before coming upstairs. It took Frazier like 7 rounds before he could really start landing heavy shots to the head against Ali in fight 1. Tyson struggled heavily to land upstairs against guys like Smith and Tucker he wasn't easily landing on their heads even in the later rounds. Again, I am not sure what fantasy land you are living in where a 5'10 68' reach opponent can consistently land to the head of a 6'5 opponent without thoroughly breaking them down first. Primo had plenty of power in his jab and uppercut Rocky would not be able to shrug either of those. And Rocky was dropped by 2 men who were 60 lbs lighter than primo.
I am not allowed to change my mind? I did not watch the schaf and sharkey KO's closely when i made those posts and had written Carnera completely off. Upon closer reflection and looking at the style break down I do not think this would be easy for Rocky at all. Ali struggled with Cooper whose B level at best yet managed to outclass Sonny Liston. It's about styles.
So my very first post, in which i submitted 2 fights of Carnera and went in depth breaking down various moments in both fights, gave you the impression I do not watch fights extensively? I know you meant in general but you posted it in this thread and now I'm very curious where this accusation is coming from. There is no way I could write what I wrote if I didn't watch films of fighters extensively even if you disagree with it. I am even subscribed to channels like the modern martial artist that breaks down specific fights.
Pretty big backflips Cobe. You are basically admitting you were talking shyte all thru the Carnera Bowe thread and there was probably thousands of words of it. Not the greatest look. I've seen you take a completely one eyed stance before to try and "win" a debate. You know i like you and your posts which is why i have commented. You are better.
Well Bowe is a completely different beast from Rocky h2h if the convo is how either would do against Carnera. Nobody with an IQ over 60 thinks Carnera is actually more skilled and a better h2h fighter than a prime Bowe. In regards to this thread, you got me. I'm being inconsistent and this was basically a bait thread. But I have good intentions which is to exposes the inconsistency of some posters when it comes to Carnera and his chances in fantasy fights. People are straight up saying a 70 pound weight difference is irrelevant and a come forward aggressive fighter with short arms would win. And the thing is I don't even disagree, but then some of these same people will say guys like Wladmir or Lennox don't do any better than Carnera despite clearly being way more well rounded and skilled than Carnera. Or if you ask them if someone like Hagler or Jones or Andre Ward could beat Rocky they scoff at the idea despite the fact they are only 10-20 lbs lighter and bring plenty of skill to the table.
Cheers for the admission which was what i was of course grinding for. I've done semi similar but to a notably lesser extent. I've just come up with a new term which i am going to label "Marciano madness". It's prominent in Classic and runs both ways tho i think the latter crowd have far and away overtaken the previous. At the end of the day it's all fun and games.........until Carnera gets hurt!
It was just a response to @JohnThomas1 post, not a dig at you. It's actually a point that's been annoying me for a while now about this forum in general, and, as a response to the post, it was an appropriate point, one which I cannot really start a whole thread for. Personally, I think your posts are well written, reasoned and enthusiastic.
Thank you. I actually agree with your overall point that this forum should maybe make a sub forum for h2h matchups because it can get out of hand. Whenever a fighter's name pops up and the thread goes on for more than 2 pages, all of a sudden people gets inspied to make half a dozen threads with that fighter or bump old ones and it clutters the 1st page. The majority of them are either uninteresting or things which we have already discussed 2, 3 or more times already. I have brought this up before with the mods and I do recall Mcgrain cracking down on all the Rocky and Primo threads briefly but it seems we are having a resurgence yet again. I was on another forum and the mods admitted they allowed the chaos to happens because they knew it would generate traffic for the web side. I am not suggesting that is the case here, but it's certainly possible and it would be disappointing if that were the case. I don't see why we can't simply either make stricter regulation for thread creation or making a separate forum for vs battles. We do often miss potentially interesting threads that get pushed to the 2nd page and lower as a result.
Now we are making things up? Please post where I said Marciano wouldn’t have to break him down first? Also please show me some fights where Marciano was susceptible to the uppercut? Marciano is far more skilled then Tua...not even close. Better defensively. Better at closing off the ring (obviously). Better at countering. All around better skilled. Tyson had more skill but no stamina to back it up. Frazier and Marciano were as about as equal in that department as any. Walcott used his amazing footwork to keep away from Marciano. The jab helped but it wasn’t the main reason he kept him off. Moore tried to keep him off using the jab but it was useless. Moore even admitted Marciano was much harder to hit then he thought he would be. Only thing I ageee with you on is your assessment of the Charles fight. unfortunately you missed the point. Point being Carnera wasn’t half as skilled as Charles was on the inside. Carnera couldn’t keep a no skilled Baer from bulldozing him no chance in hell he keeps the highly skilled Marciano off of him. For some odd reason you Marciano detractors can’t seem to give him his due. Somehow magically other less skilled same height individuals beat the big PC (which you haven’t addressed) yet Marciano is gonna finally get tagged with uppercuts when he was never at risk of them because of his style before.
EVERY swarmer is susceptible to the uppercut. This is across all weight classes and multiple eras. Rocky simply never encountered a guy with a very great uppercut, let alone a guy 6'5 with a good uppercut. Frazier and Marciano are not even remotely even in terms of hand speed, head movement, or defense. Agree in terms of toughness and stamina. Slight edge to power for Rocky and a better right hand. Tyson is better than both in speed, head movement, and defense. Tyson did not have stamina problems in the 80's, it wasn't until the 90's when he lost motivation and slacked off that he had bad stamina. Both Frazier and Tyson were weak to uppercuts and struggled with tall big men who had solid jabs and uppercuts. This is common freaking knowledge. For the 2nd time I never said Carnera was great on the inside. I said he wouldn't need to be because of the clash of styles. Marciano's "skill" is not a whole lot better than Baer lol. Let me know when you are ready to get back down to Earth. Carnera has a sprained ankle and Baer is much taller than Marciano with longer arms. He had a much easier time landing on the jaw than 68' reach Rocky would. Which "less skilled same height" opponents are you referring to that you complain when people say they can beat Carnera?
Carnera would have a height and reach advantage but Marciano was pretty good at being short, and if you are very tall, hitting a much shorter guy that doesn't want to be hit can be a royal pain in the ass. I think that Goldman would have Marciano stay well to his right and get low; he would want Carnera to reach and jab down at him. That would shorten his reach and put him in range for a right hand which, conveniently, is Marciano's best punch.
Really no use talking to you about boxing if you even remotely think Baer and Marciano are close on Skill. Marciano Frazier and Tyson were all different fighters with vastly different styles. They were all excellent defensive fighters and they all did some things better then the other. Tyson always had stamina problems. As in his power didn’t carry over to later rounds u like the other two. I was speaking in terms of skill in regards to Frazier and Marciano not hand speed. Unless you confuse actual ring skill with hand speed? You made another false statement. Frazier and Tysons defense wasn’t better. The most I will give you is say close to even. The others fought better competition. But that’s it. Statistically speaking it’s not close Marciano blows them both away. But it’s fairer to grade on a curve. I don’t think we will find common ground here. You can’t admit Marciano wasn’t susceptible to uppercuts while he fought guys with excellent uppercuts. You can’t acknowledge that men of the same height of far less ability were able to beat PC. PC didn’t seem to take great aggressive fighters well. Marciano is a great aggressive fighter.
