Rocky Marciano vs Riddick Bowe?

Arguably won ? No. It was close but no THAT close. I myself scored it 115-113 Lewis and the average person scores it 116-112 for Lewis. He had a weight advantage but the reality is Holyfield still weighed well over 200 pounds. Past it Holyfield is better than Marciano. So theres that. In fact just 2 years before he was outclassing Mike Tyson. Marciano is a sub 200 pounder who would barley be making cruiserweight nowadays. It's crazy how overrated he is.

 

Yes, it's undeniable that today's SHWs are vastly different from the heavyweights of the 50s, and that many of them would crush Marciano like a bug.

However, that's not something you want to hear - so for years, you have been dreaming up these weird scenarios, where you transport today's huge HWs back to a time, where they (in your opinion) would be much smaller and lighter - thus giving Marciano a better chance to beat them.

What mystifies me (and I'm sure a lot of others) is... WHY? You're obviously a big Marciano fan, and that's fine. So am I, for that matter! I can't help but admire a man, who worked so hard to always be in tip-top condition, enabling him, despite physical shortcomings, to defeat every man they put in against him. You have to admire that! So why is this not enough? Why is it so important for you to believe, that he would be competitive against the best from 60-70 years later - who fought in a different era, under completely different circumstances? Why not just admire him for being a great fighter in his own time, and leave it at that?

 

I think chok is trying to level the playing field in terms of modern training. And I get it, sports nutrition, training strategies, supplementation (he's not leaving PEDs out of consideration) HAVE changed the sport some. Not that things are necessarily better, but boxers have quite obviously gotten much bigger, more muscular, and on the average taller over the decades. Patterson and Marciano were far from robust heavyweights by today's standards.

I also think he means that we're still maintaining the individual fighter's skill set, ie Bowe's great jab, willingness to fight dirty, big heart, etc.

This does, however, bring to light something that comes up a LOT around here, the size equation in the heavies.

 

For the love of God, someone put this on a goddamn plaque!

 

It would be a great fight.

 

The reverse is true of others isn’t it? Why Can’t they just admire the new heavyweights for being great fighters in their own time, and leave it at that? Why insist on so many baiter threads to draw out the defenders of Marciano?

It’s like once one of these giant fighters loses, there’s a rush from the size queens to find great fighters from the past to beat up on in mythical matches. And Marciano is the number one target isn’t he?

 

Well of course, but janitor literally wrote that the shorter man "always" wins "no matter how skilled" the big man is and that's illogical.

 

I don't understand why he can't leave things as is. Instead he manipulates variables to make it a more favorable match-up for the fighter he prefers when he knows he can't make a reasonable case for him as is. Notice, all this "different eras" crap goes out the window, when Marciano is the obvious favorite over someone from a different era.

It's dishonest, disingenuous, laughable, and pathetic. I expected nothing less from him.

 

No he didn't. This is what actually said: "A big man is always going to be at a disadvantage against a small man on the inside, however good an infighter he is." He never said that they always win. And the way you've worded it is incredibly disingenuous.

He didn't say the smaller man always wins, he said they're as a disadvantage. He means a disadvantage in terms of physique, stature and build on the inside. You can still overcome it. Just like how a small fighter with a short reach is at a disadvantage on the outside vs a fighter who's taller and longer. Skills can overcome the disadvantage, but they're still at one.

 

I wasn't trying to be disingenuous. Yes you're right he didn't explicitly state that short fighters will always win on the inside.

If you say "always" at a disadvantage that suggests that no matter how skilled they are they can't overcome that disadvantage. Which is just as incorrect. He's indirectly intentionally or unintentionally putting a cap on how skilled a big man can be on the inside with that all inclusive statement.

I understand that common sense dictates that short arms and short height gives you an inherent advantage on the inside. But that doesn't mean they will "always" have the advantage against a taller opponent. Boxing and fighting in general doesn't work like that because you are applying physics and anatomical restrictions on intangibles factors like skill, ability, experience, etc.

And we know for a fact Bowe can handle smaller heavies on the inside such as Holyfield and Cooper, which was part of my other point, that you'd have to give Bowe the benefit of the doubt when you consider Holyfield is a more skilled fighter than Rocky. The way Janitor and Choklab have been wording things almost suggests he'd be clueless and at a complete disadvantage the moment Rocky gets inside regardless of his skill and the footage completely disagrees with this notion.

 

Not important how we scored it, it was a competitive fight that saw Lewis rocked multiple times. It's not unreasonable to score it for either man.

Joe Louis was well over 200 pounds when Marciano faced him.

I disagree, though he was still an excellent technician it was obvious he had trouble pulling the trigger and maintaining movement. It's been argued that past it Joe Louis was still better than many present day fighters technically, despite also struggling to pull the trigger and maintaining movement.

And a few years prior to facing Marciano, Joe Louis was the undisputed HW Champion of the World.

I feel it is very hypocritical to dismiss Marciano's win over Joe Louis, while not holding Lewis accountable for his very competitive bout with Holyfield.

Holyfield and Louis were both "well over 200 lbs" as you put it, as if that is some magic immunity. Both Evander and Louis had been retired and were 37 years old, but were both presently active with wins over contenders and highly rated.

Here's where the big difference comes in. Marciano might have got marked up, but he demolished Louis very clearly. Louis was almost 30 lbs heavier than Maricano. Lennox Lewis had a hard fought decision win over Evander despite holding over a 20 lb weight advantage and a 4 inch height advantage (Evander has always been 6'1").

Like I said, in contrast to Lewis getting knocked around by a 37 year old smaller past prime great in a workman decision win, Marciano did very well against Joe Louis. If you truly disagree with that, you haven't provided a real counter argument. I get it you feel Maricano is small and overrated, but let's see some logic to dismiss my point here, or perhaps a mature concession.

 

He gained weight and regressed with each fight. It should be obvious to anyone who watched the fights.

 

But Joe Louis was WELL past it. After beating Walcott, he retired for over 2 years, came back and lost to Ezzard Charles, fought 8 bums afterwards and only KO'd 3 of them. Its clear Joe Louis wasn't just past it, he was practically shot. Even before he retired he was showing signs of regressing in skill. A couple to a few years prior to the Lewis fights Holyfield was coming off of 2 career high wins over Mike Tyson and made lightwork of Michael Moorer. The same Michael Moorer he lost to in between the Bowe trilogy. He was past it but wasn't that past it. I have no doubt in my mind that a prime Louis would have taken Marciano out in a competitive fight. And besides, 6'5, 235lb Riddick Bowe is significantly larger than the shot Joe Louis that Marciano fought.

You're making Marciano's win over past it Louis better than it actually is while making Lewis's win over past Holyfield worse than it actually is. Just because both were old does not mean both were way past it. Everybody is different. And lets address the elephant in the room. Holyfield is significantly larger than Marciano when he fought Bowe

 

Clear as day. The decline of Bowe was fast.

 

This is a misconception. Louis was active in unlicensed fights.

In 1948-joe fought another 19 times (including bouts against Arturo Godoy, Billy Conn and Jimmy Bivins that were certainly competitive), 36 times in 1949 ( including bouts with Curtis Shepherd, Elmer Ray, olimio Agramante, bill Gilliam, Nino Valdes, Rex Layne, Tommy Flynn, Johnny Shkor and Roscoe Tolles) and 24 times in 1950 (including bouts with Pat Valentino, Clarence Henry, Nino Valdes, Henry Hall) so that count becomes 1+79 fights for the period dosnt it?

You can dismiss them as mere exhibitions but guys were knocked out by Joe Louis here. Some were 10 rounders with News paper decisions. Some Real fights, often with no head guards but no official decision

I get the impression you are not too familiar with the era or it’s contenders. Two of them were champions. One was a great fighter. Compared to the opponents of recent champions they were pretty good fighters.

Holyfeild was artificially enhanced. A product of his environment.

Marciano was a product of his environment restricted to the methods of his times.

Evander would have been physically identical to Ezzard Charles had he fought in any of the first 8 decades of the last century.