Rocky Marciano vs Riddick Bowe?

Besides Charles, nobody Louis beat after retirement was that good, wait he didn't beat Charles. Jimmy Bivins had a crap ton of losses before that just like the others. He was KOing almost everyone but after "retirement" as in offical matches, he'd seriously declined. Holyfield on the otherhand beat Mike Tyson senseless and easily beat Michael Moorer. It's not even comparable. Louis was well past it. Do you seriously think that Marciano would have beaten a peak Joe Louis ?

 

Why does this matter ? Holyfield probably would've been a lot smaller if he fought in Louis's era, i agree but he didn't, the reality is he fought in the 80s and 90s so we're going to use a prime Holyfield, the real Holyfield, that was reletivly muscular and weighed over 200 pounds

 

Joe Louis in his prime is the best heavyweight there ever was.

Jimmy Bivins looks good on film after losing to Louis against Doc Williams on You tube. Nobody was knocking him out. Bivins only fought good fighters. I think he even beat Mike deJohn in his last fight. Bivins, like Louis, was always a good fighter.

Louis was past his best but still decent. At his best he was 50% better than anyone else. Past prime Louis was still the level of any contender.

He first lost to Moorer. Don’t forget that. This is my whole argument against Bowe. He’s famous for beating the same guy Moorer beat. It took 2 fights for Holyfield to get a win against either guy. They must be pretty close.

 

Bowe has also beaten Herbie Hide though. And Bowe knocked OUT Holyfield. Moorer lost the rematch badly. Bowe lost the rematch in a close fight and he was overweight at 246. In the third fight he trimmed down to 240 and KO'D Holyfield, something Moorer couldn't do. Bowe was also the first person to beat Holyfield

 

For reference, here is what those who followed Louis thru his career thought of the version that was going to enter the ring against Marciano in the week or so before the fight.

Roscoe D Bennett, Grand Rapids Times
"Joe, almost 40 years old, slow and heavier, is no match physically for Marciano, 27 years old... In his best days Louis used to be a target hard to hit. He is not that any more. Almost anyone can hit him. He used to be strong and fast and if he were tagged could shake it off and come roaring back. He cannot do that any more. His reflexes have slowed and even if he sees an opening he cannot react fast enough to take advantage of it... It is too bad the show is going to be televised."

Grantland Rice on 10/24/51
"He has lost his former hand speed. He has blown most of his quick reflexes. He has dropped a good part of his punch...
Louis has been belting second-rate opponents with almost everything he had without an great damage resulting... If he hasn't lost his knockout punch, at least he has misplaced it. For most of his opponents lately can't actually fight a lick..."

Oscar Fraley (United Press)
"Louis has that slight but unbeatable bulge around the middle. Now even with a string of setup victories behind him he has come back once too often.
He is a long way from the Louis who defended the heavyweight title 25 times...But the battered pride deep inside - and that shaky financial condition- sent him back once more."

Grantland Rick on 10/21/51
"Louis can no longer move around... He has lost his old punch. He has been belting second and third-raters around without knocking them out.


Bill Corum (International News Service)
"I'm scared for Joe this time. I'm afraid (Marciano) will knock him out...
The majority seems to feel Joe is washed up and the worst they can be is partially right. "

Earl Lofquist, Providence Journal
"Old fighters do not know when they are done and Louis is no exception...
The sad truth is that Louis has not looked good in any fight since the evening he was badly beaten by Charles... Nor has he fought anybody of any importance in the course of his so-called comeback.
Joe was not able to catch up with Agramonte in two fights. Nor does Lee Savold count. With all due respect to the British, Lee Savold never has been anything better than a second-rater... Against a man almost as old as himself and whose style was made to order, Joe looked pitifully slow."

New York Daily News Wire
"Joe Louis, the aged, faded Brown Bomber, stands at long last on the final threshold of his career...
Among Joe's (comeback) victims isn't one who can be classed among top-drawer heavyweights. He twice beat the all but punchless Argentine, Cesar Brion, in this span. Other decisions were scored at the expense of such has-beens as Jimmy Bivins, Agramonte, Andy Walker and Freddie Beshore. His only knockout was registerd against the latter, a much-beaten, over-stuffed punching bag.
(Punching power) He has lost that talent. It has seeped away with the years. He has been playing in a strictly minor league since emerging from retirement against Charles.
A faded reputation and an occasional left jab won't save him."

 

This is a pick that is hard to argue. Only 60s Ali and prime Holmes come anywhere near imo.

 

so.

Who did Hide ever beat that was even as good as Dwayne Bobick?

yes. Moorer lost the rematch much later on. Never forget it took two fights for Evander to beat Moorer.

Holyfield literally kayoed Bowe first in that fight. Bowe was out. The ref really could have waved it off...but Evander just stopped fighting. Having some weird kind of seizure. Totally unprecedented in a fight. Without being hit, Evander was either ill or totally spent from this moment on. No wonder Bowe was able to recover and win. And that’s the single reason how Bowe beat Evander that night. Defeat from the jaws of victory for Holyfield.

yeah and once Bowe lost to Holyfield, erasing that result, Moorer beats the guy who just beat Bowe.

 

*Cough* because he... ahem...projects onto Marciano and clearly has other deeper issues going on beyond just these discussions that he hasn't addressed with his therapist. Hence why these are the main threads he spends 90% of his time on the forum doing everything in his power to downplay large hard hitting heavyweights for some strange reason. *Cough*.

 

Once again the distasteful mental illness slur. Every time.. Every time..

 

Dude stop posting nonsense.

We can't trust the testimony of actual boxing writers getting paid to watch Louis' career.

Choklab and Gazelle Punch are obviously far more informed. When the writers of Louis' day claim he was fighting 2nd raters and our resident classic experts insist these were world class elite opponents, we should obviously go with the opinion of those who have the benefit of hindsight. When the writers say his reflexes were shot and the power was gone and our peers insist he was still an elite boxer, our peers' superior perception should be given more priority.

When writers suggest or flat out state he was shot and saw how far he declined BEFORE the Rocky match, they were obviously getting paid to say nasty things by agents from the future who want to diminish Rocky's resume.

 

I didn't accuse you of having a mental illness.

I said you're projecting your own issues onto Rocky and you have an unhealthy obsession with tearing down the resume of large hard hitting heavyweights. You are free to like whatever fighters you like, but it does look odd when this is what you do 90% of the time on the forum--even repeating some of the same talking points for literally a decade. And no matter how many people point it out you pretend like you're just being fair and objective.

 

Bowe stops Herbie Hide.

Gerald eskinaz New York Times. March 12 1995.

“Tonight's smallish crowd was a stunning reminder of how Bowe's acclaim had faded. It was only November 1992 when he won the unified title from Evander Holyfield -- a crown he held for 51 weeks, in the interim disposing of two challengers within three rounds.

Since losing the title back to Holyfield, Bowe had fights that never came off, injuries that delayed other fights, and a pair of appearances against undistinguished opponents. Yet, he is only 27 years old and brought in a record of 35 victories, 1 loss and a no-contest. He had knocked out 29 opponents.”

 

Did you just say Duane Bobick LOL Hide beat Bent who just came off of a 1st round destructive KO win against Morrison. That's a quicker KO that what Mercer and Lewis did to Morrison. Regardless Holyfield had off nights. In the runup to the Lewis fight he beat Mike Tyson twice and dismantled Moorer. Joe Louis lost to Schmeling and dominated the rematch, it happens

Also he didn't KO Bowe because he was somewhat exhausted due to the war. Bowe wasn't out he clearly fought back, blocked and jabbed him away.

 

really? Looks like you did.

what else could it be?

 

So.

Bent was an 11 fight novice and having his last fight. Only 4 of his opponents had won more fights than they lost and had already been knocked out in one round by a guy who retired 9-11.