Rocky Marciano vs Sonny Liston

Good Point Bakaj and I think we all agree with you. Although I think Sonny Liston should have been able to matchup with Joe Frazier for the vacant new york title rather than buster mathis, since both denied into the WBA elimination tournament

 

Frazier was offered a place in the tournament ,but Durham turned it down,showing canny guidance of his charge ,imo.Likewise nixing a proposed match with Liston ,too risky .
Durham opted instead for the NewYork version of the title, Frazier against unranked Mathis,in MSG ,as part of a double header with Griffith V Benvenuti.

 

Yes I knew about the frazier story, how he turned them down. But I never knew why Liston wasnt accepted.

 

Despite making a respectable comeback against fringe contenders ,I think his card was marked,people like Markson ,and Brenner did not want Sonny anywhere near the big venues,which gave the managers of the up and coming guys a perfect excuse not to tangle with him. Fleischer was another who was very apathetic towards Sonny and did him no favours in print,as his comeback rolled along.I believe Sonny had upwards of 14 consecutive wins ,13 by ko ,going into the Martin fight.Managers must have rubbed their hands when he was beaten.Add to that Martin had to retire because of an eye injury ,sustained in that fight ,a double result,2 high risk ,low reward fights out of the window.

 

I don't believe Liston even had a license to fight in New York State. There was also the smell around both of the Ali fights. Frankly, I don't see how anyone can argue Liston should have been involved. If the Ali fights were honest, he lost badly and had done nothing to reestablish himself as a contender. If Liston took two dives, why would anyone want to promote him into more championship fights. Did the people who were running boxing have a death wish?

As someone said about Liston in the second Ali fight, he either couldn't or wouldn't get up after taking a fairly light punch. Either way, he was finished as a top fighter.

 

Off the topic, but it is really bizarre discussing Sonny Liston. His DEFENDERS claim we can't consider the fights with Ali because Liston did not give an honest effort and took a dive. I have never heard anyone argue that we should consider the Black Sox greater because they dumped the World Series. Who would argue some NFL team was great because they dumped a Super Bowl? It is just a strange argument. Somehow the unproven rumours that Liston tossed the two Ali fights have been used to bouy up his reputation above men who, whatever else is said against them, gave their all even in the midst of horrible beatings.

After thinking about this point, I don't think it matters if Liston gave an honest effort or not. He lost and lost so badly that his claim to top 5 or top 10 ranking just does not hold water in my judgement. He would have been great if he hadn't taken a dive just does not wash with me.

 

Good post. I will also ad, that while the rematch between Clay and Liston certainly reeked of a dive, the first fight appeared to be quite on the level. Judging by the first few rounds, if Liston was trying to throw the fight, then he certainly had me fooled. Jack Dempsey once said that the first man who is capable of standing up to Liston will be him, and frankly I think that's exactly what happened.

 

ali won the first by controlling the distance and not being there to be hit and ofcouse keeping that sharp quick jab in liston's face. liston said before the fight that he would crawl across the ring and kiss ali's feet if he lasted to the 3rd round ( footage can be found on Ali The whole story doc - i recommend it - great doc )

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some comedy from ali about the anchor punch

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So your saying because he lost badly in the first fight(actually the scorecards were even) to arguebably the greatest heavyweight of all time, that he should not be ranked in the top 10? how many other heavyweight champions at age 32-33(maybe older) could beat a Prime Muhammad Ali? I doubt any.

 

Liston did not give Ali his toughest fights, though. You would have a very good point if Liston took Ali into the late rounds before losing in a do or die effort, but he quit rather quickly in the first fight. The second fight was probably Ali's all time easiest. Certainly Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, George Chuvalo, and for heaven's sake, Karl Mildenberger, put up better efforts.

In their second fight, Liston went down from the first real punch. He could not or would not get up. That matters to me. After all, Primo Carnera gave a better account of himself against Joe Louis than Liston did against Ali in that second fight.

 

I would argue quitting while getting the **** beaten out of you is alot more gallant than quitting with 2 rounds to go well ahead on cards vs a featherfisted fighter whom you outweigh by 50 and hold 7" in height on(yet you rate this particular fighter # 1 head to head all time).

Liston didnt go down. He took a dive, this fight was a fix IMO before it even started. it means as much as Lamotta-Fox.

But we have to take into consideration listons condition. Sonny Liston showed up a career high 218lb. He was soft, he had boxed a combined total of 7 rounds in the past 3 years(that is Rust). He was also anywhere from 32-34 years of age depending on the source. This was nowhere near a Prime Sonny Liston in there.

* Did Chuvalo or Mildenberger win 3 rounds vs Ali? Liston did in only 6 rounds. I doubt Chuvalo won more than 2 of the 15.

 

I judge Liston as I do Jack Johnson ,on what they did BEFORE they became Champ.Compare the Liston who walked through WIlliams bombs to the sloppily trained boozer who faced Ali with nearly zero ring rounds under his belt.

 

This is a good point.

 

1. What has Vitali to do with this. Who is considering Vitali top ten in any historical sense?

2. "Liston didn't go down. He took a dive, this fight was a fix IMO before it even started. It means as much as LaMotta-Fox."

Well, it is your opinion that it was a dive. If I assume it was, why should I cut any slack for Liston because he didn't give an honest effort? As for LaMotta, the dive against Fox does count against him in my judgement. In a close call in historical ranking, I would pick someone like Fullmer over him BECAUSE Fullmer always gave an honest effort and LaMotta by his own admission did not.

3. Liston's condition, weight, past prime, etc.

About being past prime--I would hope so. He certainly didn't do well.
As for being out of shape--I don't cut any boxer slack for that. A boxer has the responsiblity to come into the ring in shape. I judge him on his performance in the ring--not on excuses about lazy training.

4. I don't think Liston won three rounds off what I saw, and I also don't think Chuvalo or Mildenberger got to fight a blinded Ali. Frankly, I think Chuvalo won more rounds against Ali than Liston did by a good margin, and in fact finished stronger in their first fight. And, don't forget, no one is claiming Chuvalo or Mildenberger (or Jones or Cooper) are top three heavyweights of all time, or even in their own time.

 

Liston in my opinion.