When Sonny stopped Henry Clark,in July of 68,it put him back in the Ring Magazine top 10 for the first time since the Ali loss.Wish I still had those Ring mags.Anyway the part where Fleischer gave his column editorial,you could read in between the lines he didn't want to rank Liston.But I believe Clark was ranked and had wins over Machen and Leotis Martin,so he put Sonny back in the rankings reluctantly.
No doc. you see all the other contenders in the world REFUSED to get in the ring with williams, so he did not have much of a resume going into the liston fight so he was actually unrated. However from 1961-1964 Williams was rated in the top 5 4 years in a row so the Ring Magazine finally gave him his due
"all the other contenders in the world REFUSED to get in the ring with Williams" Do you have any evidence to back this up. Mike DeJohn, Nino Valdes, Billy Hunter, and Willi Besmanoff, who got in the ring with Liston, wouldn't fight Williams? Harold Johnson was afraid of Williams? George Chuvalo was afraid of Williams? Zora Folley was afraid of Williams? Look, all these men fought more tough men than Williams did. Given what happened to Williams when he stepped up against top punchers Satterfield and Liston, his management might have been wary about putting him in against big punchers. Whatever the truth, Williams spent his best years down in Texas fighting second raters. I doubt if he ever knocked out a fighter rated in the top ten at the time. I am not even certain he ever even defeated a top ten ranked fighter, although Billy Daniels was probably rated, but I am not certain. Williams is a fighter we have to judge on very few top fights. He was green against Satterfield. Liston blew him out twice. He stopped a green Terrell but lost to him in the return. He drew with Machen. That is about it as his time as a top fighter was cut short by the shooting incident.
Thought maybe Ted Gullick was a ranked fighter, when a very over the hill Williams took a dec from him,after knocking him down in the tenth.Todd Hering might of been ranked when Williams stopped him in in the third in 1965,cause that win gave him his title shot against Ali.
There is some substance in what you say ,but the time lapse between the Terrell fights was only a year ,and Terrell just got a split dec, getting a draw with Machen ,in between these fights is a pointer to Williams potential I think.
Cleveland Williams was rated from July 1961 to March, 1967 for a total of 55 months. His highest rating was #3 Henry Clark was rated from July 1968 to March 1976 for a total of 16 months. His highest rating was #9. Billy Daniels was rated from January 1963 to February 1965 for a total of 18 months. His highest rating was #6. Ernie Terrell was rated from June 1963 to March 1974 for a total of 70 months. His highest rating was #1 Ted Gullick and Todd Herring were never rated.
The Rock was good enough to get the job done, but honestly don't know who would win that one. Methinks I should deferr to SuzieQ49.
Sonny Liston said in 1961 "No one wants to fight Cleveland Williams. He can hit as hard as me." Also I have a new york times preview article of Terrell vs Williams April 13th 1963 and I believe it says Cassius Clay, Zora Folley, Ingemar Johansson all are afraid to get in the ring with him. Let me confirm. Honestly the articles are out there, I am just not in the mood to purchase one right now for $ 3.99 to get my point across. Heres a mini feed you might like No One Scares Williams "Cleveland Williams says there is not a man living, and very few animals that scare him."-Nov. 10 1966 The Evening Independence If that is the case, then why did Williams Management throw Williams in the ring with Sonny Liston for a SECOND TIME? * I dont think the Satterfield fight as any bearing on Williams Legacy. Williams was a 20 year old 200lb immature prospect who took the fight on last minute sub notice. Who even knows if Williams trained for the fight at the time. Williams would take 3 years upon elistment in the army. Williams returned in 1957 bigger more physically mature and more menacing. King of like Ezzard Charles, Williams went to the army at 21 and came out at 24 much more mature physically and mentally. Its not who he fought, but in the manner in which he dominated. The fighters he was supposed to dominate, he massacred them! He did fight a couple young prospects and rob them of there glory, like Curley Lee Chapman, and dominated aging fringe contenders like Young Jack Johnson, Wayne Bethea, and John Holman. Also Alonzo Johnson had been in the ring with practically every single top 10 contender and big puncher prior to his fight with Big Cat and had NEVER been stopped before. Well Cleveland Williams knocked Alonzo Johnson out cold in 1 round. This is a testament to Williams punching power. HOUSTON (AP) "Cleveland Williams scored a fifth round technical knockout Tuesday night over the seventh ranked heavyweight Alex Miteff." - May 17th 1961 Odessa American Billly Daniels was rated # 8 in the world when Williams defeated him. Daniels was also 6'4 feet tall. Yet he did quite well in his prime. Only Sonny Liston was able to best a near prime 1957-1964 Cleveland Williams. I don't know what you classify as a "blowout". Maybe Hatton-Pacman. But I classify these 2 fights as Hagler-Hearns Wars. In Both fights, Williams stunned Liston and broke Sonny's nose in the first round. Liston said Williams gave him his toughest fights. I think that says something. Certainly no other heavyweight contender came close to outslugging Liston like Williams did. Valdez and Dejohn two of the divisions bigger bangers, got destroyed in one sided fashion. they did not earn the respect of Liston the way Williams did. 1. Why would you consider Terrell Green? He was 23-3 when Williams stopped him, hardly a novice. Within a year, Terell would be rated in the top 5 and score victories over Folley and Williams. I would like to add that outside of a washed up retired 1973 fight vs Jeff Merritt..... Ernie Terrell nor before nor after the williams stoppage loss, Terell did not ever get stopped inside the distance. This is very signigifant. Terell was very durable, a very hard fighter to stop. He was also a 6'6 fighter with a difficult style and tremendous left jab. I would hardly go into it as "O btw he lost the rematch" as if Williams got outclassed. In fact the rematch was a extremley close battle. I have the fight on tape. I scored it 5 rounds to 4 with 1 even for Cleveland Williams. Terrell was very much in his prime here and he was outclassing fighters like machen folley foster around this time. But not Williams. Williams gave Terell a dead even fight, and knocked him down in the 4th round that was incorrectly ruled a slip. Had the referee correctly counted this as a knockdown, Williams would have won the fight on points which makes this very controversial. "Ernie Terrell, 198 1/2, fighting with a cut over his right eye, upset No. 4 ranked heavyweight contender Cleveland Williams, 210, Saturday night in a 10 round nationally televised bout at the Arena. Terrell won by a split decision. Terrell started off fast, winning the first two rounds. His best punch was his left jab which kept Williams off balance. Williams rallied strong in the 3rd round and stunned Terrell with a left hook which referee Pete Tomasco ruled a slip. After an even 4th round, Williams scored heavily in the 5th and opened the cut over Terrell's right eye. In the 6th, Terrell peppered Williams' right eye, and although it was not cut, it was so swollen he could hardly see out of it. Terrell rallied in the 9th which apparently won him the fight. He scored with a series of close combination punches. Williams won the 10th round over a tiring Terrell, who was physically exhausted at the end." - Associated Press This content is protected - A draw is not a loss. AP scorecard had Williams the winner. Machen was rated # 2 and a master boxer, I think this fight shows Williams is a very hard slugger to outbox, which is usually a weakness for most of the big heavyweight sluggers. Interestingly enough here is what Machen had to say about the fight "In a way he's tougher to fight than Liston because he has the speed the other doesn't have. You can't walk around Cleveland like you can Liston." -Eddie Machen I would like to say I think the Terell and Machen fights prove Williams legitmacy. If you were to rate the top 5 best heavyweight contenders 1960-1965, both Machen and Terell would surely make the list. Well Williams scored a knockout victory and controversial split decision loss against one, and a draw on the cards with one of the best technical boxers of the era. He also gave a prime sonny liston, his two toughest fights. Also when Shot both figurativley and literally, he gave contenders Bob Cleroux and George Chuvalo two very competitive hard scraps. I think we can both agree with, when a world class operator stepped in the ring with a prime cleveland williams, he was not in for a easy night. This says something. Williams arguebably lost 2-3 good years because of this tragedy
I am a big Rocky fan. As someone eloquently put it, Liston's kryptonite was a pure boxer such as Ali. Rocky, however, is not this type of fighter. The Rock will crouch and try to get inside but he will take a fair amount of punishment against a very powerful puncher with an awesome jab. Can Marciano land the Suzie Q before he gets stopped on cuts or the fight ends? I honestly can't see him doing it, but he is the Rock and maybe his determination and stamina will be enough to KTFO Liston in the 14th round. I'd bet on a Liston UD.
