Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Let me add - I don't think that picking Marciano to beat Liston is the worst thing I have ever heard. I feel confident Liston would win, but people obviously feel the opposite and when you watch Marciano perform you can understand why.

But I'd consider that an awful lot of the reasoning we've heard in this thread for a Marciano victory is pure fantasy. From embarrassing cliches concerning Liston the bully to technical analysis entirely contradicted by film to lowballing the size difference, we've literally had it all in this thread. There have been one or two good posts but in general Marciano has been horribly low-balled by the people speaking for him IMO.

 

Oh come on BE, he hadn't even been slated for a ****ing 12 rounder at that point. He was still a (Fantastic) prospect, and widely expected to lift the title by many, but he wasn's scheduled for a 12 round fight until 1960.

If I was matching Liston to Marciano i'd happily take the 220lb version that smashed out King over the 1958 version. He may have been a little sloppy that night but at least he was seasoned.

If you want to match pre-Machen Liston to Marciano, yeah, i myself might start seeing it as closer to 50.50.

1960 is acceptable, 1958 is not.

 

Here's what you have to imagine for this fight IMO. Marciano just took the title from Walcott, but instead of rematching the old fella, Liston steps in. Marciano has just lifted the world HW title in his toughest fight to date; he knows what the fight game is about; he knows how easy it is to have it all snatched away; he understands the riches that lie in wait if he can hold onto it. Marciano is going to do anything he can to hold onto that title. If will alone could hold a title I believe he would be litereally unbeatable.

In the other corner, Liston is one fight away from, as he sees it, the acceptance he has craved all his life. He was put on the earth to fight and he's somehow found a way to make it pay, but he knows there's only one way that he can achieve true salvation and get The Man off his back - beat the guy in the other corner. The guy that has the same look in his eye as all the best men Sonny ever fought whether it was dirt, fists, feet, or ring, gloves, the count.

That's the fight you have to imagine; Rocky protecting what he wants the most, Liston coming to take it. That's how you get the very best out of both I think.

 

I feel bad for that fish.

 

In a sense you are right. What Liston has to do is considerably easier to see than what Rocky has to do. But as to my technical analysis, here is what you have (deliberately, at a guess) missed.

Yes, it was. Completely unaddressed by yourself:

My refutation to your claim that "any fighter" and Liston specifically, would stop throwing the jab after missing with three jabs. On film we saw, Oscar miss Mayweather with jabs and continue you to jab, THEN Liston miss with multiple jabs and continue to jab.

Here, your point is refuted by film.

Your response: None.


I also provided film of Charles hitting Liston with 7/8 lead left hands. Your response was to say that some of these punches did not land flush (True) but also that Charles "turned a lot of these jabs into lead hooks". Not actually true - Charles landed lead left hooks, but these were different punches to the ones that I counted. Regardless, my question as to how this in any way helped your case (pointing out that Charles finding it EASIER to land HARDER PUNCHES TO LAND THAN THE JAB) I got no response.

I feel that the numerous number of left leads Charles managed to land on Marciano refutes your claim that he was some sort of specialist at sliding this punch.

Your response: None.

This is an outright lie. I said that the Louis jab "likely won him the fight." It did. Almost every time Louis feinted Godoy back was with the jab. Most of the outpunches he scored with were jabs. Louis won the fight based upon his outboxing. In close, things were close to 50.50.

But did he out jab Godoy? Of course he ****ing did! Count the jabs! Louis landed WAY more jabs than Godoy.

And I never disputed this at any point. You seem confused, I suggest a re-read of that post.

so Louis out-jabbed him then?

I said nothing of the sort but have said that now because you've directly asked me (though it seems entirely irrelevant to me). READ what was WRITTEN instead of making what happened up in your head.

And this has, at no time, been disputed by anyone in this thread (or on this forum, I should imagine).

You are using film of Godoy versus Louis to "prove" that Marciano would beat Liston. I addressed the issue by pointing out to you the extreme - extreme - differences between the fighters in question (reach, uppercut, size, general skill level, ability to adjust, all areas where Liston outstrips Godoy). I don't feel this is a "cop out" at all, but rather addressing the point as directly as it is humanly possible to do so without coming to your house with diagrams and a dvd. The point was addressed as fully as it could possibly be! What on earth...

...that's exactly what i'm saying, it's absolutely true, and the differences have been pointed out to you.

I have addressed it choklab. I've addressed it in detail. I showed Marciano, on film, being hit clean, repeatedly, with the jab (and as you pointed out lead left hooks) by a fighter that has a reach TEN INCHES SHORTER than Liston's. I didn't address this notion of Liston becoming "frustrated with a tough little man who he cant catch clean on the way in" because like the MAJORITY of people on the forum, I don't think that will happen.

Choklab, you are posting from a fantasy world. You are posting from a world where, and these are YOUR WORDS:

Sheer stupidity, refuted (twice) by film. You haven't addressed either refutation.

Sheer fantasy. Crazy talk. Marciano, I would bet, has never, ever been in a world title fight where he was hit with 10% or less of the jabs that were thrown at him. Refuted by film, unaddressed by yourself.

Utter nonsense. Liston has one of the better HW jabs. Although you obviously won't see it that way, i'm sure even you will admit that it was a good one. Above, you are saying that in spite of Marciano's 17" reach deficit, his going to counter EVERY JAB THAT LISTON THROWS??

My challenge to you now is to produce any Marciano fight - any one - that lasts more than a round where you can show him landing - let's say - 60% of the time when someone jabs at him. Keeping in mind that your original position is that he will land with 100% of his counters.

 

Yes, a great post absolutley riddled with inaccuracies and false accusations. Wonderful stuff.