Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Hookie, Sep 25, 2012.


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  1. BillB

    BillB Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I posted early in this thread slightly favoring Liston to win.

    I've had second thoughts.

    Rocky had something going for him that doesn't show in any statistical printout- that's doggedness and determination.
    He found a way to win, even when he was beat. He said that he could never imagine himself losing a fight even when things looked the worst.

    I'll pick Marciano over Liston and no, I wouldn't bet money on it.
     
    BillB, Oct 6, 2012
    BillB, Oct 6, 2012
    #181
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Well consider this. Your point is now:

    To win, a fighter needs to be better than his opponent AND not be intimidated.

    That's an almost a given (though there are exceptions...and we're indirectly dealing with one now). I'm going to try Bummy, one more time, to show you the poverty of your position and then give up. It's nothing personal.

    Duran was intimidated and forced to quit by Sugar Ray Leoanrd. Two years later, shy of being out-boxed by Benitiez, he failed to deliver his best against a similar type and was beaten. Therefore I am picking Saddler to move up and beat him in the same way.

    You think Duran poo'd himself? OK.

    Willie Pep quit twice to Sandy Saddler. Saddler roughed him up and Pep couldn't handle it. Saddler was just too tough for Pep and Pep crumbled mentally. So I think that Rafael Marquez could move up and beat him mentally too.


    It isn't often that a puncher is intimidated by a boxer, but it happened - maybe - when Liston met Ali. That doesn't mean that every time Liston meets someone who "isn't intimidated" fights him that they will beat him if they are talented. That's clearly nonsense. But most of all, the person you are picking to have this affect on Liston is the complete opposite of the one person in his career that may have made him feel this way. Liston being forced to quit by Ali may be related to a shoulder injury and a KO respectively (or mob fixes on both occasions) OR he may have dog quit, but if he did, he did it ONCE and to an opponent who represnts THE ABSOLUTE OPPOSITE OF WHAT MARICANO DOES FROM A PSYCHOLOGICAL POINT OF VIEW.

    And it's nonsense on two levels. Because Ali, by his own admission was deeply intimidated the first time he fought Liston. All this bull**** about a guy not being intimidated by him is just that. He was intimidated. Deeply. And guess what? It counted for nothing on that rare occasion.

    SO a guy who was intimidated COULD beat Liston. And a guy who WASN'T intimidated, might not - did not, on almost every occasion, because this idea that these professional HW's were all too terrified to fight him is just silly. Like Zora Folley is too frightened to fight Sonny Liston? No, no, no, these men deserve more respect than that.


    It might be hard for you to predict, but in these instances, look what actually happened. Watch the Clark fight, watch the Machen fight, watch the Whitehurst fight, watch him fight. These guys aren't intimidated or terrified. They just get beat.

    Well he was, if the stories repeated by various biographers are to be believed. Was I there? No. So I can't say it definitely happened. It's not that important though, my point is, and I have already stated it clearly, there is NO REASON TO BELIEVE that Liston was intimidated on any level by the "pit bull type" you (Accurately) depict Marciano to be. None.


    Did he? And is there? You seem extremely confident. Note that of his three most serious biographers only ONE draws a direct conclusion concerning those losses and that conclusion was that Sonny DID NOT quit dog. Do I buy that? Not necessarily, and I don't think it matters, because your argument is not really valid even if he DID quit (like Langford, Frazier, Pep, or Duran), but you come to this argument with one of the most important points settled in a way that neither Mee, Tosches nor Steen, who have all written books on the man, could arrive at directly - that he had quit dog.

    So you assume plenty here. Keep that in mind.
     
    McGrain, Oct 6, 2012
    McGrain, Oct 6, 2012
    #182
  3. techks

    techks ATG list Killah! Full Member

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    Very comical to believe Liston will find Marciano hard to hit. Trust me I do feel the odds are in Liston's favor highly and I'm a bit crazy for having Marciano possibly winning but lets be honest. Marciano will get touched. I think the best prediction as I said earlier is him getting busted up down on the cards or not and Liston winning by 8-11 rd TKO. Removed from near prime Charles & Louis troubled Marciano I believe Liston will have multiplied success.

    Also, Marciano would be the biggest puncher Liston has faced but he has to crowd and get inside. Liston would be stronger and his reach is still a huge factor as well as him fighting like it(unlike someone like P Will or Corrales). Would be a fun fight but I can only see a Liston mid rds TKO being the most reasonable. For what its worth I question Liston's legacy as a legend though I feel he'd do well H2H and Marciano is great(er, if ya consider Liston great) but a worse H2H fighter. Fantasy is H2H and we can only judge them based on what they did and I feel Marciano more accomplished but Liston more dangerous when motivated.

    As far as intimidation, it shouldn't affect pro fighters although it does. Just saying "He'll intimidate him" takes away the credit that "bully" has done in the gym and worked on their craft. They're professionals. Many are scared/intimidated by the moment in the ring period. It depends on the result and if they **** themselves with fear and lose or ko/dominate their opponent.
     
    techks, Oct 6, 2012
    techks, Oct 6, 2012
    #183
  4. Surf-Bat

    Surf-Bat Boxing Addict Full Member

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    A great exchange, but I think McGrain is pulling pretty far ahead here. Hard to beat the logic he's laying out.
     
    Surf-Bat, Oct 6, 2012
    Surf-Bat, Oct 6, 2012
    #184
  5. techks

    techks ATG list Killah! Full Member

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    Crap, meant to mention Liston's jab but I brought up reach so folks should get da point.
     
    techks, Oct 6, 2012
    techks, Oct 6, 2012
    #185
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Well since this long chat started, Liston has certainly streaked into the lead in the poll :D

    But I don't feel i'm doing anything special laying this out, at all. Most of this is pretty obvious stuff IMO that nobody else has bothered to lay down or spell out is all. It's easy to look better than the poster you happen to be talking to when you are right, I find.
     
    McGrain, Oct 6, 2012
    McGrain, Oct 6, 2012
    #186
  7. yancey

    yancey Active Member Full Member

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    I posted very early on that Liston would win by devastating knockout over Marciano.

    I've thought about it some more and haven't changed my mind.

    And I would bet money on it.
     
    yancey, Oct 6, 2012
    yancey, Oct 6, 2012
    #187
  8. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Mcgrain,

    Willie Pep was past his prime when he fought Sandy Saddler and still managed to convincingly beat him one time, and win most of the rounds in the other fights before saddler got dirty and illegal forcing pep to sustain bad injuries. The first fight is an impressive win for Saddler.


    Pep of pre 1945 beats Saddler everytime
     
    SuzieQ49, Oct 6, 2012
    SuzieQ49, Oct 6, 2012
    #188
  9. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

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    Always good for a chuckle ..
     
    he grant, Oct 6, 2012
    he grant, Oct 6, 2012
    #189
  10. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

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    This remains, time and again, one of the most ridiculous threads on this forum .. it really separates the Marciano fans from the nut huggers ... I love Sam Langford but I would never sit here and split pubic hairs trying tp make an argument that he could defeat a prime Ali because of the realization that styles make fights and under circumstances size does matter ... Marciano, with all respect in the world, was made for Liston and the only way a few try and justify a Marciano victory is either through distorted character assassination of Liston or bestowing super human powers of heart and character to Marciano .. it's a hoot to read , that's for sure ...
     
    he grant, Oct 6, 2012
    he grant, Oct 6, 2012
    #190
  11. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    So you think Sandy Saddler was better than Willie Pep?
     
    SuzieQ49, Oct 6, 2012
    SuzieQ49, Oct 6, 2012
    #191
  12. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    :nut
     
    SuzieQ49, Oct 6, 2012
    SuzieQ49, Oct 6, 2012
    #192
  13. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    It really is. He's broken apart both fighters quite nicely and has addressed just about everything that has been thrown his way. I like Rocky Marciano and for all we know, might give a good account of himself against Liston. But I just can't see him winning.
     
    mr. magoo, Oct 6, 2012
    mr. magoo, Oct 6, 2012
    #193
  14. BillB

    BillB Well-Known Member Full Member

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    When I first came here I enjoyed these fantasy match ups.

    The more of them I read the less meaningful they become.

    No one knows who would have won these fights. It's pure speculation. There are too many unknowns and intangibles.

    Who would have picked Clay over Liston in 1964? Nobody.

    Who would have picked Buster Douglas over Tyson?
     
    BillB, Oct 6, 2012
    BillB, Oct 6, 2012
    #194
  15. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Sonny Liston by UNANIMOUS DECISION. A highly durable slugger beating a bigger stronger slugger who can be very methodical, and likes to sit back on his jab. This fight is going the distance.
     
    SuzieQ49, Oct 6, 2012
    SuzieQ49, Oct 6, 2012
    #195
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