Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

The only real arguments that I've heard in favor of Marciano ( or at least the ones that keep coming up ) are

" Rocky would force sonny to stop throwing the jab"

" Liston would fold under pressure as soon as someone stood up to him"

" an extra 30 lbs in weight and 17 inches in reach are irrelevant "

" Beating Floyd Patterson meant nothing, because Floyd was too terrified"



Now there may be some valid arguments which could give some REAL insight as to why Marciano should be favored, but I have yet to hear such perspectives.

 

The same case could have been made for Liston vs Clay.
Other than the weight and reach advantage, it would have all lined up in that fight in favor of Liston.

How did it work out?

And you may be exactly right. Liston may have beaten Marciano. I honestly don't know but it would have been a great fight.

 

Its only easy for Liston if he can get away with doing what he wants. My hunch (and it is only a hunch, after all neither of us can prove anything) is Liston will not be able to do what he wants all of the time. remember Harry greb? and since Rocky hits hard, well…accidents happen when you cant do what you want.

A lie, my response was “The example you use Liston continues to throw against a retreating opponent he cannot reach. It is not the same as continuing to throw it against a low crowding mauler who is restricting the space Liston needs to really use all that leverage the way he does best.” a clear technical analysis -and I stand by it. In a normal situation fighters do not tend to fire consecutive treble jab combinations to the extent they usually do if they all miss. By jabs, I am not talking about feints.
　

I disagreed with that ratio, the number and the type of intentional jabs. You had to be counting feints. Marciano was not opened up with clean walk down jabs. It was not key to any success Charles had. Your point is Liston will pound Marciano with jabs then over power him inside. The Liston jab would be restricted in this fight.

I pointed out Charles’s hooks not you. You have an obsession with Liston needing to jab to win - when Marciano was easier to open up (from a feint) with a hook from closer in. It would take a faster more crafty ATG than the plodding and predictable Liston to do this IMO.
　

Well I am sure you do, at least you are man enough to admit these were not clean jabs from a faster puncher than Liston, but the point is it was evident that you miss counted the number of jabs Charles landed with. Marciano’s being difficult to hit with
the jab was mostly to do with him presenting less openings as he came in as it was to being any kind of deliberate specialist at sliding past the punch.
　

Was Louis’s jab restricted in this fight with Godoy?
　

I am confused as to why you think Joe Louis won the fight with the jab in a fight of few jabs? The fight is close mauling for the most part. Isn’t it more important than his jab not being as effective as usual. The point is it was not as effective and therefore Louis had a harder night than expected. Liston would have a harder night than
expected if his jab is not as effective. Joe Loiuswon that fight because Godoy did not do enough to take his title. The Joe Louis jab was reduced to a lighter weapon because ofGodoys tactics.
　

No it was to show how a great jab can be neutralised using a similar style. Marciano would need more than neutralising the Liston jab. Godoy is a demonstration of another Charlie Goldman trained fighter.
　

No you did not. There was no repeated jabs connecting cleanly. Charles used them sparingly because there was not the openings. Rocky forced him to fight close.
　

It is a small majority not worthy of the outrage you seem to have for the opposite opinion from your own.
　

Ok, the fact that Marciano opponents were restricted to throwing less jabs than normal kind of says something. This hang up you have about me using a percentage in a figure of speech kind of way is a tad petty. However I think Charles hit Rocky with about 3 of 11 jabs in that round and only one was correctly. Even trying to help you out, if I use round one of the Moore fight - Archie does land more jabs but he was wise to throw the kind of touch jab that would allow him chance to change direction - a far more sophisticated procedure than what Sonny would have attempted. A touch jab is not the kind of cruncher Liston went in for. The kind of devil may care all eggs in one basket job brings the entire body forward into closer range even if it lands. With all his reach Liston used his jab to fight with not to score. It lands then he fights. It doesn’t land he still fights. Fighting, exchanging blows at close quarters would even things up a lot against Marciano. Rocky has a chance in exchanges because of the unpredictable angles his punches landed from.
　

Liston had a wonderful jab. The best and most destructive jab, a real battering ram but it is the kind of jab that is more effective against stand up boxers who are hoping to box Liston at mid range. Guys who want to jab with him or looking to time him from an upright stance. Against a low, smothering, elbow and shoulder stance is another matter.

Not one bit. Marciano will get hit occasionally with the occasional jab Liston might get through .For the most part it is an inside fight where there is no jabbing room.
　

I suggest the lastarza fight. Lastarza does hit Rocky but usually pays for it when he tried the jab.
　

 

　
#1" Rocky would force sonny to stop throwing the jab"

Marciano would restrict the use of the Liston jab in the way another Charlie Goldman trained fighter Arturo Godoy managed to restrict the great jab of Joe Louis. The crowding presenting less openings and forcing Louis to try other things. Godoy did not win the fight but he made it close ….without Marciano type power.
Its not just the jab -its most of the outside punches. Rocky did get hit but it was inside where he opened up.
　
#2" Liston would fold under pressure as soon as someone stood up to him"

Other fighters stood up to Liston and got beat …..but they were not ATG fighters.
　
　
　
#3 "an extra 30 lbs in weight and 17 inches in reach are irrelevant "
　
Of course it is relevant, Marciano will have to be careful but he is the better mauler of the two. Harry Greb was said to be a magnificent mauling human windmill who could give away weight. So was Rocky but with two handed power. Liston was both shorter and lighter than Joe Louis, still a fair contender on a win streak when Rocky mauled him. The size advantage did not help Louis inside, a place where usualy older fighters fare better if they have the advantage.

#4" Beating Floyd Patterson meant nothing, because Floyd was too terrified"

Although not word for word, Angelo Dundee said something along those lines - he used the words psyched out” and was more than qualified to attest if Patterson was able to perform or do himself justice against Liston. He was packing a disguise in those fights - such was the strain he was under.
　

other pointers…
"Marciano was the more proven inside fighter".
"Marciano had a better engine."
"Marciano could fight 15 rounds."
"Marciano has more pedigree in that he came from behind to win fights at elite level."

　

 

Yes this one lands but charles has already missed 2 so hes landed 1 out of 3 so far and there is most of the round left to go.
　

Not a scoring blow. Insufficient force.

Im not sure of the contact. Wouldn’t score.
(

This is a scoring blow. A beauty!
but not a jab.
　

Agreed another miss.
　

Not a scoring punch, you are corect about contact but its nothing but a reactionary fending off with n open hand.
　

Not that conclusive.

out of range. No contact.

Not a jab. Charles touching with an extending open glove before taking aim with the right. Insufficient force.

Direct hit! Charles lands for the second time with a scorring jab.
Ratio: 2 of 12 moments were actual landing jabs that would score.

Nobody getting hit repeatedly with jabs what so ever. Even when you try to blind with science you cant be trusted.
[

 

Mee, Tosches nor Steen, probably all 3 sit down to pee, and would all be in fear and awe of the Liston legend or they would not have had the fascination to write a book about the man, I would not expect them to say he quit when the going got tough. I am going by a lot of boxing insiders and old timers who have been around the ring and streets for a while and they say Sonny either quit or took a dive.

Liston looks great against Cleveland Williams and he looks great against Patterson but I myself are not sure how he would react to a great fighter who had heart and courage and the most power Liston ever faced.

For me their is a crack in Liston's armor...you say he did not quit against Ali but I wonder who did not come out of the corner for fight 1, and I guess you feel it was the Jack Johnson anchor punch that Ali landed in the 1st round in the rematch....I agree Ali had multiple 1st round KO's with that punch through-out his career and it caused Liston to roll around for 3 minutes.

I think Liston would be a hard fight for Marciano but I think Rocky's crouching style and awareness of the Liston jab and power makes Rocky a bit more cautious and careful but he comes on in the exchanges and gets to Liston on the inside with some good power punches and awkward combo's much like he did against Moore, and I do think Sonny feels power that he never felt before. Rocky could get dropped but I see him getting stronger as the fight goes on and tests Sonny in the stamina department and there will be a heart check...I can see Sonny going down and out with his face laying flush on the floor like he did vs 6'ft 198lb Leotis Martin.

Liston would be a dangerous fight (I would assume for anyone) but I think he would fall short against most of the very best. that is my opinion.

 

:good good post, i don't know where you get the energy

 

Mcgrain just raped Chokelab.

 

Suzie, if you can real all that crap, you're a better man than I am.

 

Oh yes I survived a sexual attack but only from a totally impotent ******….

Mgrain listed a whole load of stats from a fight (that were wrong anyway) to prove a throw away “figure of speech” was wrong.

He might be a bit petty but is still a good poster though.

My point (off the top of my head) was that Marciano was hard to nail with (and left few openings for) a long, outside jab. And Mcgrain proved me right.

See if Mcgrain can prove me wrong this time:


5’7’’ Albert Westphal (neither world class nor rated in any world) was hit with only 6 of 21 jabs from Sonny Liston.

 

Baring in mind Albert westphal was not world class and the result Liston recorded against him could have been achieved by most top 5 rated contenders Listons jab stats of that fight was only 6 landing of 21 correct jabs. Liston was even countered a few times. Not that good against a 5’7’’ guy who was not that good of an opponent for a world #1 contender.

 

I am just glad there was no viagra. you beast!