Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Yeah its funny the lengths some will travel to in an effort to bring someone down. No I didn't see that other thread on ingo and Rocky, but thanks for saving me the trouble.

 

Surprisingly close poll. (!)

 

Tragic evidence of archies punching power as a heavyweight:

6'3'' 209lb Aljandro Lavorante was a rated heavyweight contender (#3) when Archie knocked him out in 1962. Lavorante was riding high in the ratings after a good year in 1961 decking zorra folley 4 times then knocking him out (the first to do so since Liston in 1960) and had never been knocked out until meeting archie. Poor Lavorante left the ring on a stretcher ruining him as a fighter. Aljandro should have retired but sadly became one of the rings fatalties just 2 fights later.

 

Liston wont need a jab to beat Rocky he just needs to be better than Marciano at medium to close range, I am not sure that he was. Punch power, unpredictable punch sequence and work rate favour Rocky inside IMO.

 

Good finish, but who was LIston fighting? Unrated Westphal should never have been allowed to fight Liston. It was an awful mismatch, nothing to gloat about. Poor Albert was 5'7 tall and had lost his last fight, had been KOd 3 times before at a much lower class. Liston was the #1 contender. what chance did wesphal have?

 

Lem Franklin died following his fight against a guy with a 40% KO average. Thanks but that doesn't do it for me.

 

A lot of whining, I see a pretty reasonable poll odds wise.

 

Rock does NOT have the edge in punching power, and I am a huge proponent of Rocky's power. Liston was a terrific infighter, and threw a huge short compact left hook as well as a deadly uppercut( a punch rocky has never seen from a 215lb huge powerful man)....Liston took apart Floyd Patterson on the inside when Floyd swarmed him.

Rocky fought one very skilled 215lb man, Joe Louis. Joe Louis was old, but still connected many times flush with his jab. Liston in his prime had a phenomenal jab, better than Louis's. Enough to convince me rocky's face would get badly damaged by it on his face in. Furthermore, when rocky did get inside..he would be met with a man that had an abundance of strength, killer short hook, and brutal uppercuts in both hands...Rocky would take a lot of punishment.

 

Marciano was harder hitter. He had better record. He would have beaten Paterson, who was scared of Liston. Patterson was beat before he got in ring with Liston. Every expert of that era said Marciano was better. Yet because of Liston's looks, weight, and mysterious death leading to him getting legend status, people are picking him, and making him out o be great.

 

　
I think you are correct in that it would be a harder closer fight than people think. Where I disagree is the effectiveness with the jab. In one round Albert westphal ( a D lister at best) who was even 4 inches shorter than Marciano slipped 60% of Listons jabs. Now, if a honest, overmatched non-world class opponent with that kind of disadvantage has that kind of ratio against the Liston jab what will it say about how Marciano might fare against the jab?

Joe Louis’s success with the jab against Rocky is overblown. For two rounds Louis was so mauled he had no room for his usual strong jab so he was forced to adapted it into a flicking defensive jab to try and find space. He did land but he did not find the space to land anything off it. Even then it worked only for 2 rounds out of 8 (rounds 4 and 5) and this was only once Marciano bizarrely decided to stalk and counter. In round 3 joe was taking as many punches back as he was landing even with those tactics.
Like you say Liston can compete inside as effectively without relying on the jab, I just think he would find it harder than anything he ever had to cope with in real life.

 

I agree with this.....this is a tough hard fought fight for both men. Rocky is one of my favorite fighters and that may influence my opinion but in reality it is the substance and intelligence of the man and the fact that he was a beast and truly great fighter that makes me love him. Marciano is a hard man for anyone to beat, never-mind the statement of some that he would be blown out like the 5"7 Wesphal that so many on ESB have been repeating, Harry Matthews was a far better fighter than Westphal and look at what was done to him.


I can see Suzie loving Sonny like I love Walcott and at least Suzie said it would be a tough fight but some of these guys are looking at Marciano and not seeing the fighter and man that he was. Some of them are very indignant if you have a difference of opinion.

I was good friends with some in the Patterson family, so I have a lot of insight into Sonny Liston and Floyds mindset at the time of their fights....Floyd came out of it a better man but it took some time for him to digest what caused him to fail and the fear.....Floyd really felt he had the style to beat Ali and felt if he had not had the injury he would have beaten Ali, but he knew guys like Liston and Marciano, with the power and pressure were all wrong for him....but he also felt he was at a mental low for the Liston fights and was admittedly intimidated ....I mean Patterson was the best fighter Liston fought with Eddie Machen next, the rest are guys that were beaten or KO'd by other guys besides Liston who were 180-185lbs... DeJohn may have been the best puncher Liston faced but was also dropped and KO'd and was very easy to hit, other than that we have Williams and I am not impressed with his credentials against quality opponents....I have my doubts how well Sonny would do against a quality puncher

Well, I am tired of beating a dead horse and I am done with this subject.....but Choklab you brought up some very good points and gave a respectable analysis of your opinion despite the onslaught by the usually Marciano under miners

 

You are forgetting Zora Folley, who beat Eddie Machen.

Also Cleveland Williams was a better puncher than Mike DeJohn. So was Nino Valdes.

 

Forget about 'regular fights'

In sparring, which I witnessed,,,,,

Jimmy McCarter, a strong 6' 2" 215 lb. ex-college football player and part-time boxer,
used to 'man-handle' Sonny with relative ease in sparring sessions.

As Jimmy showed in numerous gym-sessions while sparring with Sonny up at The Pines
in the Catskills, Sonny had poor balance and terrible foot-work.

 

Foley was Ko'd by 12 fight Lavorante less than a year later and 2 years later by 185lb Doug Jones so I'm not so impressed.

Nino Valdes was 35 years old and the Liston fight was next to his last fight,also Valdes was KO'd by Charlie Powell 4 months before Liston so I'm not so impressed

As far as Cleveland Williams you cant really tell when he fought quality other than Terrel who he later drew with, Big Cats power was not evident by his record against contenders


Sorry I was supposed to be done with this "Just when I want to quit they draw me back in"

 

Wow !

Just spent the best part of an hour reading that, dunno how i missed it before.
Great points from both sides ( some not so )

Although i wouldn't rule out a Marciano win completely some of you guys have him Superman, Batman and Ironman all rolled into one.

Johnson
Dempsey
Louis
Marciano
Liston
Ali
Foreman
Holmes
Tyson
Lewis

Any of the above can be beaten by each other on any given night but jeez, match any of those against Rocky and the diehards come up with the usual
closed mindedness :-

''I like Rocky in this one, too much heart etc''

For sure the guy was tough as anyone, heart of a lion, crazy stamina but hand on heart some of you Rock jocks must fear the end of the world occuring if you pick against him in any fantasy bout.


For christs sake, just accept he could lose once in a while.

Just because he never lost does not mean he is Superman.