Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

whilst I agree Sonny should beat Patterson's chalengers we do both know Floyd fought Harris before Sonny did. But don't make it sound like Harris was Sonnys left overs. against Floyd, Harris was getting his big chance, unbeaten and fighting with desire for the title. Against Liston Harris was the former challenger against the new kid on the block. Facing Liston, Harris looked as scared as Patterson was. Nobody could argue that was the Harris A game, any more than Walcott brought much against Marciano in fight two. What was at stake for Roy? He'd already been found out.

 

Liston was still be avoided, under the blanket of being ostracized for the Ali fights up until the Martin fight. Frazier's people wanted nothing doing with him. So, apparently, he was still a viable entity.

 

I don't know about that. I have Layne, Williams, Machen, Folley, Valdez, and Lastarza, all on the level. Layne actually may have the best resume of the bunch from a superficial standpoint with his wins over Thompson, Hall, Satterfield, Walcott, and Charles.

 

King lost to Chuvalo yet went the distance 5 times with Moore ,drawing the last then being stopped in their final encounter. Yet Moore took out Whitehurst when Liston did not though he had him out of the ring on the count of 7 in their last fight when the final bell saved him. King also went the distance with Satterfield just a few months, before losing a split dec ,prior to losing to Chuvalo.

Summerlin was stopped just twice in his last fight by hitter Nino Valdes and by tko on a cut eye going the 8rds distance with 5 fights Liston is not a black mark against Sonny,imo

Welch went the distance with decent hitters like Summerlin,Dejohn and Baker the liston fight was only an 8 rounder, again not a black mark for Sonny,imo.
The reason I mentioned Lowry is to highlight how inaccurate and misleading comparable results are.
Therefore ,how Whitehurst did against Liston does not serve as either a stick to beat Sonny with, nor a reliable indication of how Liston would do against Marciano. Marciano felt that Lowry would always go the distance with him and said so, maybe the cautious, cagey Lowry would emulate that against Liston, maybe not.

If I placed any great store by it I would mention that middleweight Randy Turpin floored ****ell 3 times before stopping him so the fact that Marciano floored him ,after butting him, hitting him after the bell ,and while he was on the floor is no great achievement.

I'm not disparaging Marciano I just feel Liston is stylistically all wrong for him.

If Liston could pick a style, a small swarmer, with short arms, and slow feet , with a propensity to cut would not be far down the menu

 

He was still on top when he retired there is not evidence that getting punched had anything to do with his reaso for retiring. Rocky had said his back was giving him issues and he struggled to have the drive to train as hard as he knew he needed to.

 

If Liston could pick a style he would pick Marciano?

I don't think so. Who would pick a great fighter with so much desire, so awkward, so hard hitting, durable and defiant? It would be an awful bruising fight even if he could beat Rocky.

Relegating Marciano to mere "small swarmer with propensity to cut" is an outrageous assumption akin in fact to excusing the quit jobs, phantom punch, knockout losses and assuming Listons elite resume is comparable to Marcianos.

Yes Liston intimidated good fighters and was a monster on film against the also rans but Sonny was less imposing when stood up to by lesser men than Marciano.
No matter how many times he beat him back Sonny still lost to a smaller man than Marciano and was knocked out by less potent punchers.

Marciano was not unbeatable but IMO he was awkward and required a more seasoned, faster handed and footed champion with more proven elite form than Sonny Liston to beat him.

 

unfortunately for Liston his record vs guys that took his best and kept coming came later in his career,Marty Marshall was what 179lbs when he beat Sonny, Ali was crazy as can be with but Liston failed, but in all fairness Ali had a unique style and later in his career when Leotis Martin got off the floor and got inside and close he knocked Sonny out flat and cold

I know some will use the Big Cat fights as reference but IMO Big Cat overrated and was KO'd pretty dominantly by Bob Satterfield before the Liston fights

I think the right style to beat Liston is someone that can fight on the inside with power, someone that can take what Sonny can dish and keep coming or an Ali style unique (I thought Ali was doomed at the time)

Liston had the intimidation thing going pretty well but the cracks in his armor proved wider than thought

 

They were good, reasonable points. I don`t believe he was trying to paint Marciano as Pernell Whitaker but that he had a method to his madness. There was some skill there even if it wasn`t obvious at times.

I`d pick Liston as well but I don`t discount Marciano`s chances totally. Liston had flaws in his game too.

As to your point about Rocky`s longevity its true that just about all of the shorter 'pitbull' heavyweights, even the great ones had a "short career at the top".

They can be great forces at their peak though. Usually take both fighters at their best.

 

More shitty points. (Not really. I just wanted to write that).

His skills are quite obvious. He worked wonderfully within his physical limitations. But let's not overstate the case.

And yes, Marciano had the style that makes short career even though his was especially short.

And I DO LOVE all those bringing up Liston's 8th fight against a 17-5 Marty Marshall. Marciano's 8th fight was against some Guido named Gilbert Carbone who was 0-1 and ended with the illustrious record of 0-4, all 4 defeats coming within the distance. The more you know...

 

How old was Liston when he fought Martin? Marciano at the same age might have fared the same. You pick a green Liston v Marshall,[ whom Liston dominated later ,]and an old one v Martin to make your case. Marciano retired in his prime ,it would be interesting to see him pushing 40 taking on the young tigers.

Marciano was in danger of being stopped on cuts against Keene Simmons and Charles yet he is going to take all Sonny can dish out?

Remind me when Marciano met a 200lbs plus heavy duty puncher in his prime? One who also possesses decent skills and a telegraph pole left jab?

 

Yes he would pick a slow, small swarmer as opposed to a fast stepping ,
cleverly defensive fighter.
Relegating is not the word assessing is.Marciano was a slow swarmer, with a propensity to cut ,[he was in danger of losing two fights to facial damage].

Liston's resume I beleive I have dealt with ,given the opportunity he beats ancient Moore and running scared Ingo that's two world champs added to it.
He already wiped his arse with Floyd twice ,and knocked off the two best contenders in Folley and Machen. That easily compares with Marciano's scalp sheet , the best of which comprises a near 40 Walcott, a pastprime ex lhvy Charles, and a 40 yrs old lhy Moore.


Layne,****ell,and Mathews might go 10 rds with Liston,



collectively that is.

The relic of Joe Louis that marked and puffed up both Rocky's eyes with the remnants of his jab would be taken out early by Liston. If you want to look at what names are missing on their prospective rises to the title Liston pisses it, who did he miss who was any good?



Marciano? ; Baker,Wallace,Henry,Valdes,

 

Well, when we're talking about how much credit Walcott and Charles should get for their collective record of 2 wins and 2 losses against Layne, I don't think you're allowed to use the fact that he beat the famous Walcott and Charles to make that look better. Otherwise, what does he have? Turkey Thompson? Ok, but Thompson was in the middle of a career-ending losing streak. Henry Hall? A light heavyweight who'd lost most of his bouts over the last 2 years when Layne scraped home on a split decision against him. Bob Satterfield was a good scalp, but while dangerous Satterfield was fragile and did get beaten fairly often.

The younger heavyweights of the early 50s were just not good enough to stay at the top when better fighters started to come through later in the decade. Layne was still in his mid twenties when his losses to Earl Walls and Hurricane Jackson finished him as a contender. Valdes was beaten by Machen and Folley just a year after his close 15-round decision loss to Moore.

Patterson, Machen, Folley and Williams, on the other hand, all proved their quality by remaining contenders well into their thirties, scoring wins against rising stars like Ernie Terrell, Oscar Bonavena and Jerry Quarry.

 

There a a myriad of guys that are delusional when it comes to Marciano and no rational thought will budge them … for the most part they are the usual suspects as this thread keeps rising like a Phoenix every month or so .. I don't even really read them anymore because they are so redundant but had a few seconds this AM and see nothing has changed. This is pure tribal behavior, nothing more.

Few fighters are more made for another than Marciano was for Liston and I see him getting crushed early, either sliced to pieces or flattened in three or four rounds tops.

 

-This is why I used the description of "superficial"

-Layne was ruined as a contender by the savage beatings he took from Charles and Marciano in a 3 month span. After that, he started showing up to fights out of shape and fell into gate keeper territority. He got a gift decision from Dempsey that briefly kept his career afloat, but he was washed up very young. Certainly his own fault, but his career got off to a promising start. He survived a Satterfield blitz that an upstart Williams couldn't endure. And he did out hustle an injued Walcott for two excellent signature performances.

-Valdez suffered severe eye damage in a brutal loss to Satterfield that basically finished his career as a top HW prior to facing Folley and Machen. He still had power and picked up some good wins over late 50s contenders DeJohn, ****ell, McMurty, and London in his last fight before the vision problems finally forced him to retire.

-And if you are playing how they did against similar competition game, Moore stopped a prime Johnson who would go on to outbox Machen, and he hospitialized the giant Lavorante who had just dominated and KOed Folley.

-Well, Patterson is an all time great. But I will add Machen, Folley, and Williams were much much better managed than their early 50s counterparts. They were brought up and managed similar to modern HWs, gradually built up on declining contenders and names, limited meetings between each other, getting easy matches and lay off safter brutal losses.

For example, after getting destroyed by Ingo, Machen took about 5 months off and wouldn't fight another real contender until over a year later. Compare that to the bloody Layne gauntlet above. Not to take anything away from Machen but is it not surprising he had a longer shelf life?