Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

If you read my post I said unfortunately Liston folded up when in tough and that crack in his armor would be a hard weakness (wide crack in his armor) against Marciano, like I said before Marciano beat guys 6"4 and and guys 220-250lbs but when he won the title the top #1 contenders happened to the smaller better men, Archie beat some very big men on his way to Marciano, so did Walcott guys 6"6 and Charles 6'3 and Lastarza got rid of Dan B.....

Marciano defended his title against the better men who beat the bigger men...I do think Marciano would have had a much easier time breaking down Baker,Valdez then the ATG Moore,Charles and Walcott, even Layne was 34-1-1 and beat the man who beat and drew with him when he faced Rocky and Layne was called by Nat Fleischer as the next Dempsey and next champ but the sudden clean and brutal KO ruined Layne as did fight one with Charles (emptied Ezz tank) war 1 with Walcott (brutal KO) and the 53-3 LaStarza beat everyman to beat him except Rocky but was ruined in fight 2, and Archie took a horrific beating head and body (and was never the same) even though he was still a great and went 38-4-2 post Rocky.....Rocky beat the best men available 5 #1 contenders should he apologize that the bigger men were not the better men of the era

I see Marciano on the inside of Liston, breaking him down and after Sonny throws down his best the little monster keeps throwing punches in bunches with ill intent and Sonny gets tired of the game

 

:good
This is based on fair observation rather than assumption and generalisation.

To be honest about things Marciano gives Sonny a tough fight any way you look at it.

Those that say Marciano gets blown away won't aknowledge Liston had competative fights. They won't aknowledge the frozen, psyched out factor effect on performers who let them selves down and allowed Liston to have his way.

I would not dream of using the Marciano v Walcott rematch as evidence of Rockys prowess because it was a blow out over a good opponent who never got going and his heart was not in it.....yet Listons entire career is based on two such fights!

 

Did Liston fold up when his jaw was broke ,or did he carry on to the end?

Did Liston fold up when the hardest punching heavyweight around broke his nose, or did he fight back and stop him? TWICE!

Once again you pick, an old past prime Liston to make your case.

Ever heard of the expression level playing field?
It's prime for prime!

According to Moore's mother he was two years older than he admitted to , that makes him 41 when he fought Marciano.

Moore admitted he had no legs for that fight and hadn't had for years .
He was a natural LHVY who capitalised on the paucity of the heavy weight talent to extend his career. Eight months prior to the Marciano fight, and in Moore's previous one Archie scaled inside the 175lbs limit in a LHvy title fight with Bobo Olson Three of Moore's last six opponents , prior to his heavyweight title challenge ,were light heavies.
Do you think he would do any better against Liston than he did with Rocky?
I very much doubt he would have floored Sonny ,as he did Marciano.

Marciano needs to apologise for nothing , the point is when posters make statements like,"There is not much evidence that it was the kind of jab that was effective against Awkward crouching crowding opponents trained by Charlie Goldman".The obvious response is

" There is zero evidence that Marciano could handle a 200lbs plus heavweight with an 84" jab who could match him for power,and was , in his prime". And I made it.


Sam Silverman who promoted a lot of Marciano's early fights said Rocky could have just as hard a time fighting also rans as top contenders.

Marciano NEVER beat a big heavyweight who was his equal in power, Liston did .
The four names I mentioned ,Baker,Wallace,Henry, Valdes , were rated heavies before Marciano was champ he met None of them.I would pick him to beat them but then I would pick Liston to beat them, and he is proven.against big heavies.

 

Who says Marciano gets blown away? I don't,I say he gets beat because stylistically Liston is all wrong for him.
You talk about Liston's opponents as though they were all beat before he got in the ring was that the case with Williams?Valdes? King, Besmanoff,Dejohn?
Liston had competititive fights who said he didnt?

Would you say Marcianos' defences against Moore,Walcott and Charles were non - competitive? How about Lastarza 1 & Lowry1?
Competitive or not?
And you then talk about assumptions, and generalisations.Oh my! atsch

 

Liston was very effective boxing on the retreat, he is spoilt for choice here, Marciano HAS to get inside, and he is going to pay a heavy price to do it.

 

You need to watch a 40+ Liston against ,come forward ,durable George Scrap Iron Johnson,and then tell me he can't land his jab against short guys,he set Johnson up for combos with it all night.

 

So Marciano's superior speed and defense ( clearly superior to Patterson's ) would make the difference … Maybe if Sunny had Kryptonite in his trunks he would defeat the man whose fanatical followers believe defies all logic and would beat a bigger, stronger, harder hitting fighter with a far longer reach, a stylistic advantage and a far faster started ..

My only question ? What color was Rocky's cape ?

 

If Marciano was hard to hit with the jab, how come he had two black eyes ,and was very marked up facially against the relic of Joe Louis?:huh Rocky stated that,
"I couldnt avoid Louis's jabs ,I just had to take them".

Q .Who would we say had the best jab ? A shot, 37years old Louis, or a prime Liston ?
Toughie.:think

Some of these Rocky boys are in serious denial.
Here is some ammo for them.
"A man that I admire tremendously,is Rocky Marciano, Marciano was clumsy, had two left feet, but he was the most determined Heavyweight champion I've ever seen.

He didn't win his fights because he was a better fighter.

He won his fights because of his determination,he never stopped trying, he never gave up, and he never lost."

 

i am not sure about that,eddie machen went 12 rounds(with liston) and he had a 75" reach.he didn't possess rocky's strength or punching power.

 

And he fought like Marciano did ?
Why is the concept of styles so rare on this form ?

 

Liston got KOed in the first round by a non-puncher. He was completely senseless from that feather-duster and lost in humiliating fashion.

Marciano got floored by the best KO artist of all time, but got up to stop Archie Moore in the 9th.

Chin matters. Marciano by first-round KO.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b0yHvw-vW0

 

When did Liston fold when in tough competition ? U write this like it was a fact, like talented men such as Foley, Williams, Valdez, Machen and Patterson did not go in there and try their best … it's the same stuff often written about Tyson .. that he folded when against a tough guy .. it's nonsense .. fighter's primes are limited and sometimes the fall is driven by physical issues and other by mental but we should compare fighters in their prime … Liston dominated a division for five years and fought everyone that would fight him … then he simply got old, over confident, was inactive and lost to one of the best that ever lived …

No doubt Marciano beat the best men of his time but his time was one of small and old fighters, period. The biggest puncher he ever fought was a 37 year old Joe Walcott … to say the "little monster" gets inside of Liston who was bigger, stronger, harder hitting with a killer jab and a ton of reach on him is a real leap of faith in my opinion .. I say in reality , based on styles, it resembles Hagler - Minter .. Sonny tears him apart with the jab and the ref saves Rocky in a few rounds.

 

This doesn't actually adress my point , but I'l answer it anyway.
Machen went 12 rds with Liston by boxing on the retreat ,he was a savvy, slilled boxer.

Does that sound Like Rocky, or his modus operandi to you?

 

Who was a light heavyweight ,and many of his kos were over middles and lhvy's.In his previous fight before Marciano, [ 8 months,] he scaled inside the 175lbs limit, defending his crown against Bobo Olson, a former middle, ps Moore was 41 years old.

Completely senseless? He got up and continued boxing,have you actually seen the fight?atsch