Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Take a look at how many jabs Liston landed against 5'9'' George Johnson , ps Liston was in his 40's then. After landing the jab he followed wit h the uppercut. Dangerous weapon for the croucher .

 

2.5 minutes of the 650 minutes Rocky spent in the ring as a pro.

I could make a similar video showing the powerpunching of Sven Ottke.

 

Scrap iron Johnson was about as hard to hit as any other heavyweight who was knocked out 12 times. Scrap iron had been knocked out by Sonnys own knock out victims like Ernie cab. What that sarap iron fight proved, in fact all it proved, was sonny could take longer to knock out the same guys his earlier victims could also knock out..
.atsch

 

and yet minter was the taller fighter??? Which fighter in the Hagler vs Minter fight resembles Liston? One fighter was a tall stand up european style the other a short boxer puncher switch hitter who used swarming tactics to win.

Oh, I get it! in the Liston v marciano match up you see the shorter fighter from Brockton win?

Now I know you don't understand fighting styles and technical details...atsch

 

Did you forget that Moore also sparked big rated heavyweights? 6'3" 220 Big Bob baker was #2 and knocked out by Moore. Old mongoose was still knocking out poor Lavorante and Radmacher in the 1960s. Wasn't Moore even older by the 1960s? Never mind Holmes in the 1990s or James Toney in the 2000s What on earth does it say for the 1960s heavyweights that post war Archie Moore was still relevant during both Liston and Marciano era?

 

I bet you couldnt.

Ottke wasn't fighting many elite opponents.

 

Oh C'mon watch the video THEN re-watch his fights like I did a little closer re-assess and you might actually notice these subtle movements. Again as I had said if he was that easy to hit solid at his size he would have been dropped more than twice and possibly stopped at least once.

 

Dont tempt me. And how dare you call his opponents anything but elite.

 

Seen the video and all of Rocky's fights a million times. He was not as easy to hit as advertised. Walcott even commented on that. However, he was wildly inconsistent in employing these virtues. He also too often swung for the fences, had bad footing and left himself amateurishly open. A prime Liston was pretty accurate with his jab and especially his uppercut. That could spell trouble.

Look, this is a tough, tough fight for both guys and over the years i have gone back and forth on it. No one is right and everyone is right on this one.

 

No doubt he was limited in the ring as far as boxing ability he wasn't a boxer he was a fighter. I think that Charlie Goldman should be given credit for designing a style that would maximize his strengths. I am not saying he intended to be akward he just wasn't a graceful athlete in the ring. I think his no rythum akward style added power to his ability to slip punches. I also think his akward movements tempted good fighters to commit to punches they otherwise wouldn't have. I do not think his sense of balance and low center of gravity are given enough credit even if it looked ugly.

At the end of the day no one here can dispute Liston had better boxing ability and noone can dispute his size advantage. What is in dispute is that intangible that made Rocky a winner and why he would find a way to win when the fight got into deep water. Rocky was willing to tread where most fighters refuse to tread to win in spite of his lack of natural boxing talent.

 

Marciano was a special fighter, no doubt. His focus was unnerving. He was always on task.

I dony care how big, strong and skilled you are, being in the ring with a guy that relentless, fit and focussed on kicking your ass has to rattle you.

 

Valdez lost 2 fights to Archie Moore in an elimination to fight Marciano at that time so Moore the better & more dangerous man that time period got the title shot and Valdes had a chance to be opponent # 50 but he lost badly and dropped in the 10th by Bob Satterfield

Baker was Ko'd in 1 by Satterfeild and KO in 8 by Moore

Clarence Henry was beaten by Harold Johnson and Archie Moore and Moore TKO'd Johnson (Archie was # 1 contender & light heavy champ

Coley Wallace was dominated and KO'd badly by Ezzard Charles in a dominating KO of the Big man and Charles KO'd Satterfield in 2 in an electrifying KO...Charles got the shot being the # 1 contender on the virtue of these 2 dominant KO's

If it is Cleveland Williams you refer to as the heavyweight with equal power to Liston it did not show up on his record vs quality heavyweights and he also was Ko'd badly by the 5"10 Bob Satterfield in his 32 fight


Prior to the title Marciano Ko'd plently of bigger heavier guys when he was told to fight Louis (his Idol) Joe was an older big man but Marciano brutalized him in a sad fight (Louis was past his best but he still KO'd Valdes in 1 round in an exhibition fight prior to the Rocky fight and was beating top contenders and only lost to Charles which is more than I can say about Valdes who lost 4 consecutive fights in 1953

Marciano beat the better men and ducked nor feared no man, fight 5 # 1 contender and one # 2 is pretty strong...

I wonder what you would be saying had he fought Valdez who lost to Moore 2x or if he fought Baker who was Ko'd by Moore and avoided fighting Moore, or if he fought Wallace who was dominated & KO'd by Charles and did not fight Charles (who stopped Wallace

Marciano beat the best of his era, he was sole Champ and rematched tough fights against some very skilled and experienced men who had known power & pin-point power as well

 

All Louis had left was the remnants of his jab ,and he found Marciano regualrly and consistantly with it.
I would be saying he fought big heavyweights who were rated contenders , but as he didn't, I am not.
I see you didn't comment on my posting that Liston fought with a broken nose, and carried on with a broken jaw, so much for a prime Liston folding under pressure.

 

Got to go address this later.

 

No Bummy is right. If Rocky fought these big men rather than the best men, you would complain. I can hear it "rather than face the best fighters who knocked out the big men, marciano kept the fighting bigger men his #1 contenders kept beating but it proved nothing because he refused to fight his #1 chalengers!" Or "we never got to see how Rocky would get on with sharp, fast precise box punchers like Walcott, Charles and Moore. He kept facing the men they beat who Al weil knew could not match Rocky for pace, were too slow to use their power and bigger targets for Rocky to hit"

Regarding the Louis jab, I have exhausted myself describing how old Joe was forced to revert to using a defensive flicking jab to survive. There was no room for his regular step in jab against Marciano. The Godoy fights taught him that. Marciano so crowded Louis he could not work off that kind of defensive jab and Rocky broke him down. Sure he was old but the fight still showed technical difficulties and restrictions Rocky forced on a higher rated, active contender who earned his spot in the ratings by knocking out rated contenders favourite to beat him.