Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

You just lost all credence for me. Sorry. This is just the most pathetic rationalization I have ever seen on this board.

 

I don't like criciticising Rocky due to his willingness to take on anyone and defend vs contenders always ranked top 2/3. But as it's been mentioned to death on ESB with nobody, apparently, questioning it, both La Starza and Charles were not ranked #1 in Ring when their fights with Marciano were agreed...just thought i'd put that one to bed. Al Weill said the fight was made because Ez was the "bigger draw" rather than the #1 ranked fighter- who was Nino Valdes. Charles was moved up to #1 after the fight was agreed. Valdes spent enough time at #1 (and #2) to deserve a crack at Rocky, he was certainly the #1 ranked contender longer than La Starza (who was #2 when the fight with Rocky was signed) and was ranked ahead of ****ell when their fight was signed. He definitely deserved a shot.

 

This is a good post but what so many refuse to comprehend regarding Marciano was that his career was comprised of a perfect storm … a strong determined fighter, small and old opponents many still very good but none in their prime and the fact that Rocky was very smart and quit when he did.

Yes Valdez lost a disputable decision to Moore and Moore got to fight Rocky and Valdez lost to others but AL and Charlie were very happy Rocky never had to fight Nino because of styles and size. What irks me is the delusional "Rocky had the something special crap" which is used as a device to justify a complete lack of fact and logic … Rocky had no more heart than a dozen of the top heavyweight greats or even a Leon Spinks who fought his heart out even when crushed … Rocky's timing was perfect. Louis, Charles and Walcott were old. Liston was still years away. He came up in a perfect pocket of time. He never hard to face a large prime destroyer that posed a stylistic nightmare and huge physical disadvantages to overcome like a prime Foreman, Tyson, Lewis or Liston. He never even had to fight a prime swarmer/puncher of his own size and talent like a Frazier or a Dempsey. He never had to fight a large, prime master boxer/puncher like an Ali or Holmes. If he did all the heart in the world would not have saved him but only maximized the beating he would have taken.

Rocky was a gutty, tough, hard punching 185 pound fighter , extremely well conditioned, had a chin that stood up to what he faced and gave his all every time out. He won through conditioning and enforcing his superior strength and power on opponents that could not match it over a 15 round distance. These are advantages he would lose against the best bigger and stronger men. GIve the guy his due, stop romanticizing a fighter and an era and get on with it …

 

What's wrong with saying old Louis was rated, earned his rating by beating curent contenders and was favoured to beat Marciano? What's wrong with saying Louis was forced to use a defensive jab rather than the regular jab he was famous for?

Unless it's not true, I don't understand what is pathetic about pointing that out?

I already said Louis was past his best. I'm just saying he was still a worth while contender at that time. Because he was.

 

So when exactly did Sonny Liston achieve all of this? What a tall order for any champion!

Has there been a champion in history who beat a Foreman, Lewis, a Tyson then wiped the floor with "even a Frazier or a Dempsey" and a Larry Holmes???

 

Brutal match. Liston bigger stronger, longer reach with a better jab. Liston stops him late.

 

Marty Marshall was 178 lbs and although Marshall won that fight Marshall only had 11 KO'd in 38 fight in which he lost 13 fights and drew 2 x, Marty was not a ferocious guy he was clowning with Liston and Sonny opened his mouth to talk back and he got hit with it open ( funny point but Marty Marshall was one of the few who picked Ali to beat Sonny Liston)


...credit is given to anyone who enters the ring but I dont think Liston faced any punchers in Marciano's class or any real Dangerous punchers with skill (Mike DeJohn could punch but was limited and KO'd by others).....with Ali it was a mental thing IMO and with Leotis Martin, LT got off the floor and got in close to spark Sonny bad but yea Sonny was older and Leotis was a fringe contender but had decent power but no where in the class of Marciano as a puncher or an inside banger and Leotis had been stopped by Jimmy Ellis and beaten pretty clearly by Oscar Bonavena the year before

Liston had the look of a monster but Marciano was the monster that kept coming

 

Do you think that Marciano faced any punchers in the class of a prime Liston?

 

Valdes lost 4 fights in 1953, they were to Harold Johnson,Archie Moore, Billy Gillian, & Bob Baker...Valdes had a good run in 1954 but most thought he lost to Archie McBride...then he fought an elimination with Archie and lost so Archie got the shot at Marciano by virtue of the victory

...Valdes was given another chance to redeem himself and got the shot at Marciano for fight # 50 but he was battered and dropped by Bob Satterfield and lost credibility and appeal for the shot with that loss and Satterfield was too erratic and recently KO'd in 2 by EZZ to be marketable...there were no $$$ fights left for Rocky to stay interested thus he retired

IMO and the opinion of a few experts Valdes would have been a fight in which Marciano would have looked impressive in scoring his 50-win with 44 KO's but Valdes blew the chance again like he previously did against Moore 2X

 

probably not but a lot of Sonny's wins were backed by the intimidation factor ( his best KO's over Floyd) but Walcott was a banger enough and had pin point precision and Ezzard had some beautifully KO's...Layne was a banger and proved tougher than Big Cat vs Satterfield

.....I dont say it would not be a rough fight for both men just think Rocky keeps coming and get stronger, stamina, toughness, and late power and Sonny dwindles ...just my opinion and as a kid I thought Sonny was invincible but I learned a lot more about boxing since then and really dont think he had the opportunity to be tested by a good boxer banger or a great banger and the Ali fights certainly put a damper on my high regard for him and this was way before Tyson's fights against Holyfield, Williams or McBride ...intimidation can go a long way but when it backfires its a *****

 

Make that two then.:good

 

What difference does this so called "intimidation factor ,"make to Liston's power? Does it mystically lessen it?

Many of Louis's opponents were intimidated when they stepped into the ring against him, does it mean he really did not hit all that hard?

You dont consider Cleveland Williams a" great banger"? Mike Dejohn was not a banger?
Liston, and Terrell said Williams hit them the hardest, they must have been wrong. Patterson was not a good boxer banger? How about Folley?

 

Heresy! Sacrilege!

 

:good:hey:good

 

"Louis was past his best but he still KO'd Valdes in 1 round in an exhibition fight prior to the Rocky fight and was beating top contenders and only lost to Charles which is more than I can say about Valdes who lost 4 consecutive fights in 1953"

Louis had 9 fights on his comeback , before facing Marciano, in his final fight , 7 of them went the distance.

Louis had two exhibitions with Valdes.
The first was on Jan 28th 1949, it went the 4 rds distance with no knockdowns.
The second was on Feb 7th 1950, it went the 4rds distance with no knockdowns.

Louis fought Marciano on Oct 26th 1951.
This names Valdes as the top contender for October 1954.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=6bkyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=3A8EAAAAIBAJ&pg=6209%2C5914676

The Ring named Valdes as the fighter who had made the most progress the year 1953!


Williams was 21 years old ,and a last minute substitute in the Satterfield fight.

Charles had won just 2 of his last 4 fights when he challenged Marciano.

He was not the no 1 contender when he signed to fight Marciano, Valdes was.

Valdes lost 3 fights in 1953 , to Harold Johnson by dec
Archie Moore by dec and Bob Baker by dec , he then went on an 11 consecutive winning streak, not losing until May 1955 ,[to Moore], among his victims was Charles,Agramonte,Sys,Neuhas ,and Jackson. He was the no 1 contender well long enough to deserve a fight against Marciano but never got one.