Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Nobody on film hit marciano with that kind of jab. A fast defensive stay away jab yes. Not the strong liston type jab you can work off.

Rockys style invited jabs but because of his low awkward clumsy stance it was difficult to nail him cleanly at long range with one. The jab would lose something aiming down and would bounce off elbows or shoulders before penetrating the target. And then you are in his range for Rockys reply.

The weight on the front foot when you come in with a Liston jab makes it difficult to step off for the follow up if it dosnt already knock the victim back first time. It requires a clean impact each time otherwise you are in danger of getting tangled up with the mauler.

 

You have a penchant for putting words in other posters mouths.ie Marciano gets blown away by Liston.

Marciano can't cope wth Liston's jab.


What in fact those who disagree with you say is , in response to you saying ,Liston would have great difficulty in landing his jab on Rocky ,is that he had no such difficulty landing it on men shorter than Marciano.

Marciano is facing a man bigger,stronger ,heavier, equally hard hitting ,and one with a telescopic reach advantage whom also possesed a great uppercut, the nemesis of the croucher . Therefore Liston is stylistically all wrong for Marciano, and that hence in all probability he will be stopped via tko caused by facial damage.

n.b. Liston was over 40 when he fought Johnson ,a prime Foreman could do no better against Scrap Iron.

 

How many jabs did Frank Bruno land, nay how many jabs did Frank Bruno attempt against Mike Tyson? The problem with putting all the weight into a strong offensive jab against a prime, shorter WORLD CLASS presure fighter is that it is difficult to land it.

 

Tyson had far better head movement than Marciano, quicker foot work and miles fstaer hand speedand a better defence .This is a silly comparison. Liston had a world class uppercut.
I suppose because of Marciano's mystical defence Sonny can't land that on Marciano eitheratsch

I'm sorry, you've offered nothing to substantiate your pick.
You're good guy ,and a good poster ,but this is fan-boyism at it's worst.

 

McVey … I'm assuming you have a touch of time to fill and are just staying sharp because you know you will never get a Marciano guy to give an inch ( with only 67" they need every one they have ) … To them Rocky simply defies fact, logic and common sense possessing some special "quality" be it will, skill, heart, drive, focus, conditioning, ect unique in the history of a heavyweight division where for everyone else, even the other greatest of the division's greats, size, speed, weight, style, reach and quality and age of opposition are factors. To question this rational you are automatically branded a hater no matter how many times you give Rocky justified credit. This breed of followers are as zealous as any in the sport, their position and reasoning for the most part tribal. Still, have fun punching the bag …

 

-Sounds like you were using the annual ratings, which are unreliable in the early 50s because the scene was too helter skelter with constant fights between contenders and the ratings shifting monthly. Roland and Charles were RING #1.

-Charles was moved to #1 after beating Satterfield. The fight was an official eliminator.



-Here are the RING Monthly ratings posted by Edward Moebius:

Ring Rankings in October, 1953, issue to August 18.

Champ--Rocky Marciano

1--Roland LaStarza
2--Ezzard Charles
3--Dan Bucceroni
4--Nino Valdes
5--Tommy Harrison
6--Bob Satterfield
7--Heinz Neuhaus
8--Don ****ell
9--Earl Walls
10-Harry Matthews

Losses by LaStarza, Charles, and Bucceroni and Valdes wins put Nino at #1 at the end of the year, but he fell out of the #1 spot in early 1954 when his management avoided a rematch with Charles, Charles ko'd Satterfield in the elimination fight Valdes skirted, and Valdes looked bad in barely beating Archie McBride. Charles then took over the #1 spot again.

Ring Magazine rankings August, 1954 issue

Champ--Rocky Marciano

1--Ezzard Charles
2--Nino Valdes
3--Don ****ell
4--Jimmy Slade
5--Roland LaStarza
6--Hurricane Jackson
7--Dan Bucceroni
8--Bob Baker
9--Earl Walls
10-Heinz Neuhaus

After the two Marciano-Charles fights, Valdes regained the #1 ranking after ko'ing Jackson. However, Archie Moore, who had beaten Valdes and ko'd Harold Johnson and Baker, began demanding a fight with Marciano, and was viewed by most as the real #1 contender. He was matched with Valdes in May, 1955 and beat him again, dropping Valdes out of the top spot permanently. Of Marciano's opponents, LaStarza, Charles, and Moore were all rated above Valdes when he fought them. Only ****ell, at #2, was rated under Valdes.



-Yeah, Co ckell was #2 when Marciano fought him and Valdez was ranked ahead. The reasoning was that Rocky needed a tune up for his training lay off and recently repaired nose. Considering how poor of a performance it was from Rocky, they were not wrong in that reasoning. Valdez or Johnson would have got the next shot but both were defeated by Moore by the time Rocky was scheduled for another defense. Moore was the most deserving contender to Marciano's crown with wins over Henry, Johnson, Baker, and Valdez.

 

It's not fan boyism, otherwise I would not be able to come up with technological analysis. Fan boyism is when a great fighter is dismissed on size alone.

Sonnys uppercut is a more useful weapon against Marciano than his jab. I give you that. I can at least see that now you are actually thinking about the style clash rather than just dismissing Rocky without regard.

Fan boys think Rocky was invincible. Rocky was not invincible, I'm just picking him over Liston.

Rocky just has the edge because I feel he would be too awkward for Liston. I feel Sonny would not be able to do what he wanted, it would be very competative. They would both be getting tangled up inside where Sonnys full strength and Power would be neutralised. Sonny would become frustrated and outworked. I see Sonny getting hit more than he was used to and I see Rocky struggle too. The bottom line is IMO Most of all I see Marciano fighting his fight and I don't see Liston fighting his fight. That's why I feel Rocky has the edge.

Usually when two punchers meet the one with the best chin wins but its not just as simple as that because Sonny is also difficult to fight, is bigger and has longer arms. I get that. But there is no getting away from the one round knockdown by Ali and other events that actually demonstrate how Sonny coped in certain situations Marciano was capable of taking him into. There is no getting away from the fact that Rocky was a great fighter who if beaten by anyone it would need better credentials than what is on offer from the lesser great Charles Sonny Liston.

 

I never branded you a hater. I was however confused that you questioned my rationale whilst attempting to compare Rocky Marciano with Alan minter, a tall European southpaw middleweight....

 

I really was not referring to you in particular or really anyone in specific .. it's just an over all Rocky group of sorts and it does not mean I'm right because all of this is speculative, it's just my feelings on the debate in general. As far as the Minter reference , I'll have to look back as I'm a bit confused .. nothing new

 

You're not really taking things on board are you? We are talking prime for prime.
LISTON MURDERS ROCKY.

 

I will try and find the story I read on Louis-Valdez exhibition but lets talk about what Valdes did in the official ring for a minute I think the fact that Valdes lost to Moore2X dominated and dropped by Satterfield, lost to Gilliam, Archie Moore and Bob Baker in 1953 and was lucky to get the decision in Cuba (split decision) over Archie McBride in 1954 then lost an elimination to Moore in 1955 and Moore by virtue of winning got the shot...to further show how weak your arguments are Valdes only won 2 fights out of 8 from 9/1955 to 9/1956, beside losing the elimination in 1955 he went on to prove he was not worthy but Sonny still fought him in 1959, 4 years later

You stated Marciano ducked 4 men and I answered you below

Valdez lost 2 fights to Archie Moore in an elimination to fight Marciano at that time so Moore the better & more dangerous man that time period got the title shot and Valdes had a chance to be opponent # 50 but he lost badly and dropped in the 10th by Bob Satterfield

Baker was Ko'd in 1 by Satterfeild and KO in 8 by Moore

Clarence Henry was beaten by Harold Johnson and Archie Moore and Moore TKO'd Johnson (Archie was # 1 contender & light heavy champ

Coley Wallace was dominated and KO'd badly by Ezzard Charles in a dominating KO of the Big man and Charles KO'd Satterfield in 2 in an electrifying KO...Charles got the shot being the # 1 contender on the virtue of these 2 dominant KO's

I think you were weak saying Marciano DUCKED THESE MEN WHEN IN FACT I answered you



Let me ask you a question Do you think Liston quit with a serious injury in the 1st fight with Ali and do you think Ali dropped him with the anchor punch and it was enough to keep him on the floor for 30 seconds....did Liston quit or was it legit in your opinion

You mention Patterson as puncher and he was but do you really believe Floyd landed enough of anything to test Sonny's heart...Do you think Marty Marshall 178lbs and 10 Ko's in 37 fights tested Liston's heart...tell me the how many quality guys Big Cat KO'd once he moved up in class

what impact do the 2 Ali fights have on your opinion of Sonny

I thought you were a serious poster

 

Bummy I personally do not think Rocky ducked anyone at all . That is one of the many terrific things about what he accomplished .. Unlike a Sullivan, Jeffries or Dempsey to me he fought everyone. I just find this series of rebuttals you are using interesting because when you attack who Larry Holmes "ducked" according to you, you refuse to acknowledge the a beat b so the champ can beat the man that beat the man logic … with Rocky , no trouble ..

Anyway, Rocky fought the most deserving contenders for the most part but that does not mean he fought the most difficult stylistic match ups and this is all part of the perfect atom that made up his career in my book.

 

I appreciate your opinion and I think you are correct Rocky ducked no one
As far as my opinion of Holmes...Lets not compare Holmes and Rocky or lets compare them

Holmes never unified vs Tate, Weaver, Thomas,Coetzee,Dokes and while I do not blame it all on Larry but King as well (I do not blame Dempsey for not fighting Wills (I think $$$ Rickard & politics had a lot to do with it)

Holmes gave up a title not to fight Greg Page

Holmes never rematched a tough fight many thought he lost Williams and Witherspoon, Weaver and many thought Norton should have gotten an immediate rematch

Holmes fought guys with 10-12-13-14 & 15,16 fights

Spinks for instance was KO'd in 1 round by Coetzee but got the shot and Snipes was dropped 2X vs Coetzee and Gerrie was robbed by King and Snipes got the shot instead of Gerrie

When Holmes finally moved up in class and fought Spinks, he fought a guy that never fought as a heavyweight so most thought it was an easy fight for him

I just think that the best contenders of Holmes era were avoided & Holmes never rematched a tough fight, things we can not say about guys like Marciano or Louis

by the way please let us know when your book will be out

 

Prime for prime? In Listons absolute prime 1960, he fought Howard King who lasted 8 long rounds. Howard had not won his last 10 fights and among these recent string of defeates was a KO loss inside of 2rounds to George Chuvalo. Curley Lee knocked out King quicker than a prime Liston!

Now compare that to Marciano and his run during his absolute prime, you won't find an opponent with that kind of record and you won't see them lasting that long or find any curley lee types doing better than Marciano just months earlier.

Believe me, I have taken it on board.

 

I have Louis's full record, he had 2 exhibitions with Valdes[,no Z in it, ]in neither did he ko or knockdown Nino.
I posted an article from the SI that categorically states that Valdes had earned a title shot and was the logical challenger for Marciano.

Below it is clear that 53 & 54 Valdes was the no 1 contender.

195319541955Rocky Marciano, Champion

1. Nino Valdes
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Dan Bucceroni
4. Roland LaStarza
5. Earl Walls
6. Don ****ell
7. Clarence Henry
8. Tommy Harrison
9. Bob Satterfield
10. Coley Wallace

Rocky Marciano, Champion

1. Nino Valdes
2. Don ****ell
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Bob Baker
5. Earl Walls
6. Heinz Neuhaus
7. Rex Layne
8. Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson
9. Charley Norkus
10. Jimmy Slade

1955Rocky Marciano, Champion

1. Nino Valdes
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Dan Bucceroni
4. Roland LaStarza
5. Earl Walls
6. Don ****ell
7. Clarence Henry
8. Tommy Harrison
9. Bob Satterfield
10. Coley Wallace

Rocky Marciano, Champion

1. Nino Valdes
2. Don ****ell
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Bob Baker
5. Earl Walls
6. Heinz Neuhaus
7. Rex Layne
8. Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson
9. Charley Norkus
10. Jimmy Slade

Rocky Marciano, Champion

1. Archie Moore
2. Bob Baker
3. Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson
4. John Holman
5. Willie Pastrano
6. Nino Valdes
7. Johnny Summerlin
8. Bob Satterfield
9. Young Jack Johnson
10. Ezzard Charles

1953 1954 1955

You answered something I never said, show me where I said Marciano ducked any of them ?

I said he did not fight them therefore he was not proven against big class heavyweights, and he wasn't.
I told you Liston fought through a broken jaw to lose a dec and with a broken nose to win by ko that satisfies any doubt about his courage imo. As usual you come up with an old Liston and his performances then .THIS IS A PRIME FOR PRIME MATCH UP! I told you Marciano did not fight 5 no 1 contenders,and he didn't.
Now what you think of me is immaterial to this discussion.
Counter question did Duran lack courage ? He quit when still near prime.