Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

you said he did not fight the biggest and I said he fought the best & it is not his fault that the best were not the biggest, even Bob Satterfield who is listed as 6"2 on boxrec looks at least 2 inches shorter than Ezzard Charles and an inch shorter than Layne and Layne dominated and KO'd Big Cat (I know you said he was green with 32 fights under his belt) dominated and dropped Nino Valdes(and yes in 1955) KO'd Bob Baker in 1 round...Satterfield was KO'd by Charles in 2 to get to #1 and KO'd Coley Wallace

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKUlBPErrn0

by the way the young Layne with 29-1-2 record (same amount of fights as Big Cat stepped up where Big Cat could not see below


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKUlBPErrn0

Charles, Moore and Walcott dominated a whole slew of big guys included another of the so called Big guys from 6'5 to 6'4 to 6'3that Marciano did not fight (Coley Wallace) I can name them, but you can check for yourself ....IMO Marciano would have slaughtered Bob Baker,Valdes, Wallace and looked good doing so but he fought the tougher,more experienced and skilled men....but he would be damned by certain people no matter which way he went

to ask your As far as Duran i think he was a nut and he thought he was going to rob Leonard of the victory and give it to him rather than have Leonard take it...crazy but Duran knew he was not in good shape and was frustrated, he wasn't even hurt, if he was using his head he could have quit in the corner citing an injury but he did a crazy thing and it was worse....Tyson had to bite Evanders ear because it was a gangster facade but in later fights against Williams and McBride he showed no shame in waving the flag

Liston quit with a shoulder injury in fight 1 but he rolled around the floor like a flounder in fight 2......but you are asking me questions without answering mine

Do you think Liston's losses against Ali were a shoulder injury and the anchor punch and either way how do the Ali losses register on your opinion of Liston, did he quit in fight one because of a shoulder injury and was he clean Ko'd in fight 2

 

Williams was a late sub for the Satterfield fight, he was also just 21 years old. I did not say he was green ,once again you put words in my mouth I never said,it's a habit of yours.


I am undecided on both Ali v Liston fights. But they are not particularly relevant because we are evaluating Liston and Marciano in their primes.
Liston was a complacent boozer and out of shape for Ali , he lacked ring rounds, and was gassed after trying to put Ali away .In the second fight I think he was tagged but could have got up, probably he said **** it. Ali was a fast stepping tall boxer who was fighting on the retreat hardly a blue print for Marciano.

Your premise that Cleveland Williams was not proven as a puncher does not jive with testimonies from Liston and Terrell.Ask any boxing buff for their opinion of The Big Cat I reckon they would say ,"big puncher."

 

Bummy your a hoot … you want to get to facts instead of splitting pubic hairs here are facts …


1. Louis, Walcott, Charles and Moore were all past their best days when they fought Rocky. All of them. There is no way to dice and slice past this .. Louis was a shell. Walcott was not the man who fought Louis in 47. Walcott was 37 years old. Charles was a blown up light heavyweight with over 100 fights under his belt, ring wear and faded legs. He was pushing 34 and was an old 34. Moore was still crafty and dangerous but again close to but likely over forty. All the justification you guys make cannot change these facts . No man, ever, is better in his mid to late 30's than he is in his 20's. These guys were the best of the time but it was not a stellar age.

2. Chales was a natural light heavyweight. Moore was a natural light heavyweight. Walcott was a cruiser weight. ****ell was a blown up light heavy and LaStarza was a small cruiserweight. These are facts.

3. Marciano never fought a large , top skilled heavyweight in their own physical prime in his career, ever.

4. Marciano never fought a large, top heavyweight puncher. His hardest punching opponents were Walcott and Moore. Respectable but hardly Frazier, Lewis, Tyson, Liston, Foreman or a dozen others I can list.

These are facts. Now you take this and justify how a small, short armed, 185 pound man with average speed and defense, who won on his own conditioning, strength and power advantages can possibly dominate the best of the big men when he never even fought one? … you have zero to go on but your own fantasies. Nothing concrete. Other than , of course, his something extra …

 

Nope. Read my post again...I clearly state they weren't #1 when the fights were "agreed". The moved up after this and were in this position at fight time...but it wasn't a case of Rocky "fighting his #1 challenger' when he didn't know this would be the case at the time ther fights were announced. Charles was #1 when La Starza was signed; Valdes #1 when Charles was signed.

Is this true it was an official eliminator? I didn't know this...if it is, it seems odd that a Ring writer (Dan Daniel) would comment in 1954 if Rocky was "dodging Valdes"...this comment bourne out of the fact Nino was ranked #1 when he signed to fight Ezzard...who was knocked off the spot after being outpointed by Nino...Charles was then back at #1 by fight time...as I mentioned in my earlier post.

 

Was Patterson at his best against Liston? For a one round KO victim Floyd fought about as well as the other one round victims like Michael Spinks against Tyson or Walcott against Marciano or Liston himself against Ali ...as in they did not want to be there. Both times. Now that's a lot less to go on than taking on Louis, Walcott (the first time), Charles and Moore who at least all came to fight and were either #1 contender or champion. Nobody dug them up. Each were always taken more seriously than big cat Williams and zora Folley ever were at that moment so if there are hairs to split I feel it works both ways.

 

Did Liston though? I'm talking Foreman, Tyson, Lewis and Frazier also. Well?

I mean the punches from 174lb marshal, untested Ali and bog standard Martin all seemed to make effective impression on Sonny. And that's without being in the Lewis, Tyson, Foreman leagues but I am sure you will say Liston was too green to take the punches of marshal, too drunk and too rusty against Ali and too old against Martin.

However, surely we need to ask the same question of Sonny? If it is a point worth making it is only fair and proper you answer the same question of Liston.

 

it works both ways. Floyd Patterson was a natural lightheavyweight! marshal still was a light heavyweight when he beat Liston, dropped him and broke his Jaw. ALI defended his title as low as 201lb as late as 1966 so are you going to call him a cruiserweight too?

 

Liston's EIGHTH fight. Number 8. Care to tell me which gumbah garbage collector with an 0-4 record Marciano faced in his 8th fight?

Liston was at least 40. Care to tell me who Marciano was facing when he was 40? How about a trough of meatballs and some hairy bushed ****tail waitress on his good will tour. In other words, almost comparable to the very promising Leotis Martin.

He did face Cleveland Williams twice, who tho not a complete boxer was a very powerful puncher.

 

Floyd was 27 years old the first time and 28 the second time. He was the defending champ the first time with many successful title defenses under his belt. He would go on to fight for ten more years with pretty good success. Only Liston was able to do this to him and he did it twice. Next

 

Cleveland Williams was a monster puncher.
Niño Valdez was a big puncher
Zora Foley was a big puncher

All besides the point. Mine is physical gifts and styles. Liston was a boxer puncher. Liston had a 82 plus inch reach and a terrific , hammering jab. Listin , with close to thirty solid pounds of muscle and with15plus inches in reach over Rocky is a stylistic nightmare for a much smaller guy.

Why the need to compare him by early fights? Are you comparing him to the Marciano that was badly staggered three times against Ted Lowery, a fight many say he lost or the Marciano who fought Walcott? Just to be fair ?

One side has facts and the other simply leaps of faith completely unproven by actual combat.

 

Marciano beat some big men 6"4 and some 229lbs but I know you are going to say they were not quality guys

Joe Louis 6"2 215 Joe Louis was not what he once was but he still had an 8 fight win streak over top contenders and some durable guys and 66-2-0 record, people say he could not KO Cesar BRION but neither could Charles,Bob Baker and others at the same time period...Jimmy Bivens was another that went the distance but these guys were tough Bivens also stayed with puncher Clarence Henry only Archie Moore could stop him.

but lets look at the better fighters of the era (I know you are fixated on size) so lets see who the great Big men were


Here are some of the Big men Archie Moore eliminated
6"4 Abel Cestac KO
6"3 Alberto Santiago Lovell KO 1
6"2 Embrell Davidson (who KO'd Marty Marshall 2X) Moore KO
6"4 Leonard Dugan KO
6"3 Nino Valdes W10 x2
6"2 Bob Baker KO 8
6"0 Bert Whitehurst KO X 2 (went distance with Liston 2 X
6"2 Bob Satterfield KO (height according to box rec
after Marciano he still beat 6"3 JAMES PARKER AND OTHERS

Charles
6'2 218lb Joe Louis
6'1 200lb Rex Layne
6'2 210lb Billy Gilliam
6'1 214 Joe Baksi
6"3 Cesar Brion
6"3 200 + Coley Wallace KO
6"4 214lb Johnny Haynes
6"2 Bob Satterfield

Walcott
6'4 219lb Hein Ten Hoff (84 inch reach)
6"3 Ollie Tanberg
6'1 218 Joe Baksi
6"4 Johnny Shkor KO1 (who Marciano also KO'd)
plus Walcott beat some better smaller men such as Harold Johnson,Elmer Ray,Tommy Gomez,Jimmy Bivens,Curtis"Hatchetman Shepard

LaStarza
6'2.5 Dan Bucceroni
6'1 Rex Layne
223lb Ralph Schneider
220lb Bill Wilson


even Don Kockell beat some big men of the time

6'2 227lb Johnny Arthur 24-3-0
6'1 Uber Bacilleri
6'1 206lb Tommy Farr


so I dont know what your point is Marciano should have targeted the big men instead of the better men

JJ Walcott was not a puncher, ask Joe Louis and Ezzard Charles if he could punch or not he had Louis down 3X in 2 fights and one of the few to cold KO CHARLES BEFORE Marciano

Moore was a serious puncher (most Ko's ever, he KO'd top contender Bob Baker and handled Nino 2x

but I guess you are right Marciano should have fought the losers because they were bigger so today Hegrent could say he avoided the best of his era, lets face it you would find something to suit your agenda

Liston quit 2 X vs Ali and OK he was older but KO'd flat by 199lb lb Leotis Martin who had just lost to Oscar Bonavena and Jimmy Ellis

It was his 14th pro fight OK but Liston still let 179lb Marty Marshall go the distance

sorry but Marciano has a proven KO record as a puncher in the ring against contenders over Cleveland Williams (and Ill get to that later) Who did Williams KO once he moved up in the top 10-15 and that is the guy that you and the rest are standing on BIG CAT, yea because guys that beat him or sparred with him said he hit hard....what did he prove in the ring to say he is an elite puncher...and one opponent that Marciano and he both fought was Keene Simmons who Marciano KO 8 and William W10

sorry never saw Sonny fight a guy with the heart and durability and lack of fear as Marciano not to mention not one of Liston's opponents could hit like Rocky

Sonny was 6ft maybe 6ft 1/2 inches he was fighting at 210-212 but he got scared out of the ring by Ali 2X and I while I think it would be a very interesting fight and different styles I am not sure that the cracks in his armor would hold up vs the relentless power shots and pace of Marciano

I see a Marciano KO after some early fire-works and give and take what is concrete is that Sonny quit 2X, what is concrete is that Marciano would be the most fit, durable, relentless and most importantly Hardest puncher Sonny faced

 

Liston was a modern sized boxer-puncher heavyweight who would fit right in with the division a decade, two decades and three decades after his last fight.

When was the last 67" reach, slow of hand, crowding, power puncher who was willing to take 3 to land 1 and who made a dent in the heavyweight ranks, let alone ruled the roost for 4 years?

I think therein lies the distinction between eras.

 

a little more of that Guinness for you Seamus and the rest of Pink faced Donkeys that are not already hugging the porcelain will relish your seasoned Dago bigotry...I am sure it was an Italian that stole your girl but I hope he didn't look like Rocky...LMAO but with the Irish curse all is possible

 

A modern sized heavyweight who lost to a 174 pounder, won the title off a natural lightheavyweight and lost a world tittle fight in one round to not the strongest of punchers who later defend his tittle as low as 201lb?

For all Listons size it was largely the same kind of era. An era where every "modern sized heavyweight" got knocked out by fighters no bigger than Marciano, Bob satterfeild, Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Doug Jones, Floyd Patterson, Harold Johnson and an older Archie Moore and Jimmy Ellis