Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Who Marciano's opponents beat is neither here nor there. If you think Cleveland Williams was not a big puncher that explains a lot about some of your asssertions on this thread. Mac Foster, was he a big puncher? Who did he ko?

Joe Louis not only could not ko Brion , he could not stop 7 of the 9 men he faced prior to Marciano, he was Joe Louis in name only.

Here we go again trotting out Liston's fights when he was beyond prime ,How does Rocky Marciano do when he is 40 plus against Leotis Martin? Liston was in front at the time of the stoppage.
Walcott was 38/9 ,Moore was 41. Charles too was past prime, add Louis those are Marciano's best wins. Liston would be the hardest puncher Marciano faced. I very much doubt that Marciano hit any harder than Williams. Hero worship again.
Williams power is attested to by both Liston and Terrell they called him the hardest puncher they met. Should we take their word ,or your opinion?

Williams was an aggressive, two-handed hitter who carried real dynamite in each fist; He was a very powerful hitter who is most famous for his "showdown" battles with Sonny Liston; He may have become Heavyweight Champion had Liston not been around at that time .

Box rec seems to agree with Liston and Terrell

 

A small heavyweight whose best wins were over past prime 38/9 ,37,and 41 , all who gave him competitive fights ,two of them life and death, and dropping him, is not the best advert for a great puncher.
N B Marciano only once scaled as a much as that," natural light heavyweight" in title fights .Against ****ell and he was decidedly underwhelming .

 

How do you figure Charles was #1 when LaStarza challenged the Rock?

-Walcott was #1 to start 1953 after dropping the title to Marciano in Sept of 52.

-Layne was #2 after beating Charles in Sept of 52.

-LaStarza than beat Layne in February of 53 to claim the #2 spot.

-Walcott would lose to Maricano in the rematch and retire in May of 53.

-#2 LaStarza slides into the #1 spot as the next logical contender to Marciano's crown.

-Yes, it seems to have been an eliminator or at least treated like one. We have an article link stating the NBA ranked Charles #1 or "most logical contender) prior to signing the first Marciano fight.

-Lastarza is #1 and #2 Charles is ranked ahead of #4 Valdez in Oct 53 RING issue, which would have been after Valdez actually beat him, so you seem a bit off with your claim.

-You would have to cite the actual comment and date so we can understand the context. The Feb 54 issue does have Valdez as #1 which would have been after Charles lost to Johnson, but this would have been written and pressed before the matches in question :Charles/Satterfield and Valdez/McBride. I imagine Charles/Maricano was signed sometime in March of 54?


-I'm sorry but your claim is a bit odd, you seem to be implying that LaStarza and Charles were not rated #1 when they agreed to fight Maricano but somehow rose to that ranking without stepping in the ring while in prepration for their title fight? That doesn't seem to ring very true.

 

you & He-grant tried to infer that Marciano avoided certain styles & Big men so I showed you how the Big men were eliminated by the better men and you tell me it dose not matter who Marciano's opponents # 1 contenders beat

When I tell you Big Cat with 32 fights was dominantly KO'd to Bob Satterfield in 3 Satterfield, you say he was too young. When I say Big Cat did not even KO guys that were being KO'd, guys like Mel Turbow,Tommy Fields, Sonny Moore,Frankie Daniels,Billy Daniels ..you tell me Box rec says he was a puncher and Liston says he was a puncher,well Liston also KO'd Big Cat

guys like yourself & he-grant need to say that BIG CAT was a monster puncher to prove that Liston fought a monster puncher but BIG CATS power did not show up with results, can you tell me the fights that impressed you enough to believe he was a monster puncher or do you need BIG Cat to be a monster puncher in order to prove Sonny took monster punches...well I disagree the one punch right hand that Ali hit Liston with in fight 2 and made Sonny roll around like a flounder never showed up again and if Liston was a beast the lesser men that Ali fought would have also floundered by that"one shot anchor Punch"

I was always told the legend of Liston and the BIG CAT monster story until I started looking closer....


I really do hope He Grants book in fiction because there is so much you can twist your agenda & revise before the fact present themselves

 

I don't need to do anything.
I say Cleveland Williams was a big puncher .Is it your contention he was not? If so you are in the tiny minority. I tried to infer NOTHING I stated CATEGORICALLY THAT MARCIANO DID NOT MEET BIG CLASS HEAVYWEIGHTS WHO COULD PUNCH ,IS THAT PLAIN ENOUGH FOR YOU?
Williams was 21 years old and last minute sub when he fought Satterfield who was a terrifically successful early rounds banger. If I cared what you think I would post all the 21 years old boxers who were kod early in their careers , but then went on to become successful ,but I don't, so I won't.Suffice to say that 21years old Archie Moore lost to Billy Adams 2-2-0.

It's as relevant as the size of the opponents that Marciano's victims beat,ie not at all.

All you continually do to make your case is to point to Liston's defeats when he was past prime ,this is because he cleared out the division before he became champ.
How many times must prime for prime be stated?
I'll be honest here, I don't think you have mounted even the remotest semblance of a case for your pick.

I think you have produced just about the most poorly constructed argument for a H2H choice I have seen , rivalled only by Choklab's on this same thread.
You are resorting to personal swipes now ,a reliable indication you have nothing to offer.
You have no credibility at all on this subject as far as I can see.

 

Lot of pages on this one...have the Marciano backers mentioned the name Marty Marshall yet? Marshall wasn't very big or strong, yet he beat Liston once ( broke his jaw ), and went the distance with him another time.

Liston also went the distance twice with Whitehurst, and he was just a good journeyman of the times.

I like Liston early, or Marciano late. Would pick Liston to win.

 

How many guys ranked in the top ten when Williams fought them did he stop? Much is his KO record buttressed by weak opposition.

When I look at the best heavies Williams fought not named Liston or Ali, I noticed he went the distance with Machen, and Bethea. He did KO Terrell once, but I'm not sure if Terrell was ranked when Williams Ko'd him in 1962, but lost the re-match on points in 1963.

 

Big Cat could no doubt punch but Liston overcoming some early success from him, just isn't going to be looked at as the same adversity Marciano overcame against Charles, Moore, and Walcott.

Fair or not, the lasting impression of Liston is him crumbling from a single right hand and laying on the canvas like a slug while Ali screams at him to "get up!" And in contrast, you see the image of Maricano knocking out Charles with his nostril split in half and eyelid cut to the bone. Liston getting a bloody nose before laying out Big Cat can't compare.

The argument of picking Marciano based on his intangibles is understandable.

I'm going to have to revisit Liston/Williams. I recall the second match being a blow out, and Williams only getting some good licks in the first round of the first match, surprising Liston with his length before Sonny adjusted and got his own jab going.

 

So you are blaming the 2 Ali losses on the fact that Liston was past his prime...you said he was KO'd and did not quit in fight 2 so do you think his jaw just had it from taking those Cleveland Williams Monster shots that failed to KO the slew of guys I mentioned that were getting KO'd pretty often at the time

where the Beef, what professional ring experience convinces you that Big Cat is a monster puncher

 

May have become Heavyweight Champion if not for Sonny? C'mon man, that's a fluff piece to give the old Cat some props, but nothing more. He couldn't muster up more than a single win against top 10 competition in his entire career. Winning the title would've been a fluke in the same way we can project how any fringe contender could get lucky on any given night.

 

mio nonno è italiano e parlo fluentemente.

 

In his 8th fight... He probably should have been protected like our friend, The Wee Son of Abruzzi, and fought some nameless pasta and garlic schlub who would end his career 0-4.

You mean twice blew the goddamned doors off a fighter who would continue to be a force in the division for a decade. Beat him like no one before or after.

A fighter bigger than Louis, the same size as Baer... a guy who could do a lot of damage in the ring. Just ask Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ron Lyle and a few others....

 

How many guys rated in the top ten when he fought them did Gerry Cooney Ko? How many guys rated in the top ten when he fought them did Mac Foster Ko?

Were Cooney, and Foster big punchers or not?

You noticed Machen and Bethea went the distance with Williams? Wow!
Did you happen to notice that Machen was only stopped twice, in a first rd by Ingo when he was caught cold, and in his last fight against Boone Kirkman when he was 34. Did you also happen to notice that Bethea was only stopped once, by guess who?



Sonny Liston.

Oh my Christ it gets worse!atsch


End of discussion.

 

Same as Big Cat. Possibly 1.

-Norton & Spencer were still clinging to ratings when they got their clock cleaned by the above mentioned.

I actually think Williams belongs with those guys. Very similar careers.

 

It has no relevance to the discussion at all,eg how many top ten guys did Razor Ruddock,Ron Lyle,Tommy Morrison ko?

Is There anyone who is half- sane who doesn't think they were serious bangers?