Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

How about the part that says he was a very powerful hitter, who carried real dynamite in each fist is that" fluff"?

 

Liston was in his 8th fight with no corner, he had to tape his own hands as his seconds didn't turn up, he had his jaw broke after dropping Marshall but carried on to lose a split dec. .Do you want to take a look at the guy Marciano fought in his 8th fight? No? Thought not. Patterson scaled 189lbs when he lost to Liston, Marciano only weighed that heavy in one title defence [****ell].

 

It was from memory...so I decided to check..which meant...climbing up to the loft! :yikes

September 1953 issue of Ring...which can be seen below...featuring La Starza on the cover.
http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/File:53Sep.jpg

Page 6 of this issue features the article: "La Starza's big chance" (by Dan Daniel).

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April 1954 issue of Ring...cover star Nino Valdes...link here..

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/File:54Apr.jpg

Page 8. Article (again by Dan Daniel)

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The article comments on Charles' fight with Satterfield, so the rating you commented on being before, actually happened after he flattened Bob.

Earlier on page 2, is states:

"Is Rocky Marciano dodging Nino Valdes, the Cuban champion? Al Weill has chosen Ezzard Chales as next opponent saying "he's the best drawing card. We want the opponent who can draw the most money".

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No need to apologise.

But it is. Stinks a bit, I know. It's still true whatever way you slice it.

 

You are making excuses for Sonny. Listen to yourself "Liston was in his 8th fight" ? Liston lost to a 174 pounder because his corner man never showed up? Does that mean sonny never lost to a WW2 vet? Is it ok Sonny lost to a hand picked smaller guy that Embrell Davidson kept knocking out? it never happened? Ok, Mcvey lets pretend it never happened...atsch

Patterson was a pound heavier than Marciano one time? What has that got to do with anything? Floyd was also 169lb against Willie Troy, he still beat guys like Bonavenna and Chuvalo.

 

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Liston lost a split decision when he had his jaw broke in the 4th rd ,after knocking down Marshall he started laughing when Marshall began clowning and he got nailed when his mouth was open. The fact that he continued shows me he didn't as you assert ,fold when the going was tough, or was that your partner in crime Bummy? Liston needs no one making excuses for losing that fight, his opponet was a damn sight better quality than the one Marciano feasted on in his 8th fight,check him out.
He subsequently beat Marshall twice.

 

-The winner of Layne/LaStarza was slated to face the winner of Marciano/Walcott II all the way back in Feb of 53.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...SNWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=yOIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5101,2861899

-LaStarza/Maricano was set in July

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...HYcAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zmQEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3722,2185414


-As is we have this timeline:

RING Feb 53 (Jan)

1. Walcott
2. Layne

LaStarza/Layne Feb 53-LaStarza gets title shot.

Marciano/Walcott May 53

LaStarza/Marciano set July 53

RING Sept 53(August)
1. Charles
2. LaStarza

LaStarza/Marciano Sept 53

RING Oct 53 (Sept)
1. LaStarza
2. Charles

RING Feb 54 (Jan)

1. Valdez
2. Charles

Charles/Satterfield Jan 54

April 54: NBA names Charles logical contender

April 54: Charles/Marciano set.

RING April 54
1. Valdez
2. Charles


RING Aug 54 (July)
1. Charles
2. Valdez

Oct 54: NBA names Valdez logical contender


-Quite the puzzle, still missing some key pieces.

As is we can conclude Charles and LaStarza were either RING #1 or #2 when Maricano met them. And in April it looks like Charles was NBA #1 and Valdez was RING #1.

 

Interesting article.

Apparently the NBA recommended a LaStarza/Charles eliminator in 53, but wouldn't push the issue. The feeling seemed to be that Charles had already had enough chances, while the LaStarza was fresh and had the history with Maricano.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...qAAdAAAAIBAJ&sjid=M4oEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3305,912407

And July 53 RING

#1 Charles #2 LaStarza

Charles Top Contender In Midyear Ring Ratings Ezzard Charles of Cincinnati is still ranked top contender for Rocky Marciano's heavyweight crown in Ring Magazine's midyear ratings released today. No Effect · Rumored plans for Marciano to defend against Roland La- Starza of New York at Yankee Stadium, Sept. 24, apparently had .no effect upos the magazine's raiing committee. LaStarza stiU is ranked No. 2.

http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/11763374/

Ex-Champion Ezzard Charles was still rated top contender for Rocky Marciarfo's crown, despite the fact Roland LaStarza of New York, No 2. gets the title shot in the Polo Grounds, Sept. 24. Here are Ring Magazine's latest monthly ratings the champion and top two: HEAVYWEIGHTS Rocky Marciano. 1—Ezzard Charles. 2— Roland LaStarza


Apparently, LaStarza would take the #1 spot as the Marciano fight loomed closer and was #1 at fight time.


-Charles is #1 heading to the Maricano fight. Valdez was #1 in April Issue(actually mid Feb)

http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/8839411/

Ring Magazine. , Ezzard Charles, the ex-chap from Cincinnati, remains the No. 1 contender, followed closely by Nino Valdes, the Cuban giant who stopped the Hurricane two weeks ago. Don ****ell still is No. 3. Jimmy Slade ranks fourth, followed by Roland LaStarza and Jackson

 

The Ring's heavyweight ratings for May 1954 were as follows:

(Ratings dated May 20)
Champion: Rocky Marciano
1. Ezzard Charles
2. Nino Valdes
3. Don ****ell
4. Jimmy Slade
5. Tommy Jackson
6. Roland La Starza
7. Dan Bucceroni
8. Earl Walls
9. Heinz Neuhaus
10. Tommy Harrison


Thanks to KOKid

http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=217346

May Ratings would would have covered up until mid March I think, so I believe we can give Rocky credit for fighitng his #1 on this one. As it appears the McBride fight in Feb sent Valdez down to #2, and Charles held #1 until October of that year.

Rocky's defenses:

#1 Walcott
#2 LaStarza when agreed, #1 at time of the fight.
#1 Charles
#1 Charles
#2 Cokell
#1 Moore

 

I'll make this as simple as I can for you.
You said,and I quote.

"How many guys ranked in the top ten when Williams fought them did he stop? Much is his KO record buttressed by weak opposition".

The implication being that Williams power was not that special, right or wrong?
You can tell it's your words by the spelling mistakes.
I then gave you several acknowledged power hitters who do not have, or have very limited kos over top ten ranked opposition. Cooney,Ruddock,Morrison,Lyle,Foster.

That is what Cooney has to do with it ,see it now?

You have difficulty following an argument so I've taken my time .

You quote Foreman as a source for Cooney's power,ok I quote Liston and Terrell as a source for Williams power, both stated he was the hardest puncher they fought. Williams broke Liston's nose, I would imagine that hurt a bit. Who says Williams was not a big hitter ? Do you?

 

now,now, let's not get too excited!Rocky fought unbeaten kids like Bobby quin and Eddie Ross in only his second month as a genuine pro. Depending on the source they were either 21-0 and 16-0 or 8-0 and 15-0-1. Who really cares? It only proves Rocky wasn't that carefully protected. Would you be making excuses for Marciano if he blew either fight?

Maybe that's was because Sonny had a hex over Floyd? This is not an excuse just a theory. Think about it, Floyd later beat two big heavyweights Chuvalo and Bonnavena who were better than big cat Williams but earlier could not perform against Liston or fare as well as Whitehurst or Howard king had? I don't think Floyd wanted those fights. Perhaps floyd was so uncomfortable about the pressure of "decent America" wanting to him to beat the bad boy? Not Sonnys fault of course but how good was Liston when he lost in one round? Who ever turned up to win losing in one round?

yet Ali was 201lb as late as 1966...that's the point I am making. If Sonnys colossal Herculean size was such as issue how come he lost so badly to smaller or lighter men?

 

Whether they were better than Williams is a matter of opinion, the fact that they were significantly smaller than him is not ,it is a stone cold fact.

 

wait a minute we are not even talking about top 10 guys we are comparing him to guys that were getting KO'd that he could not KO...Cooney KO'd LYE in 1, Norton in 1, stopped Young, KO'd Ed Greg...Mac Foster went 24-0 and he KO'd Thad Spencer in1, Zora Foley in 1 and Big Cat 2X (all past there best) Cooney could hit with that hook and Foster must have gotten ruined by Quarry or he was not a top level banger....Jose Urtain KO'd 24 strait I believe something like that but he fizzled once he moved up

Cleveland was taken the distance by Billy Daniels,Frankie Daniels,

but worse was Mel Turbow, Tommy Fields,Sonny Moore and these guys were getting KO'd by the likes of Maiano Echeberia,Buddy Thurman,James Beatie,Buster Mathis,Hubert Hilton,Jack Bodell, Charles Williams,Here one for Seamus Franco Depiccolo, Al jones....I asked one question who did Big Cat KO that qualifies him as a monstrous puncher....these are men a Monstrous puncher KO's

 

Both the Sonny Moore, and Mel Turnbow fights were after Williams had been shot and when he was well past his best. Yet again you try to build a case on past prime results. Have you nothing at all?