Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Liston was more than a banger he was a boxer puncher with one of the greatest jabs in heavyweight history. He was also bigger, stronger, with better boxing skills, and with tremendous advantages in reach,and for this fight he would be PRIME.

All things being equal does not apply here.

 

This is a somewhat objective post ,and on this thread that is refreshing.
Williams lands a good uppercut in the opening seconds but most of his big shots to the body are blocked by Liston's big arms, he has more success with his jab.
Point here,Williams had significantly better hand speed than Marciano,and a good jab from a much greater reach than Rocky which Marciano did not possess.
Liston manages to smother Williams shots, so why wouldnt he do the same to the comparatively tiny ,slower Marciano?
When tagged Liston retreated and regrouped,[I mentioned this in an earlier post ,]I dont see any sign of him being in trouble, just sensible defensive work, Marciano did not retreat when tagged ,he kept coming because he was dead in the water at long range, and smart enough to know it.
To the question was Liston vulnerable to the body? No one dropped him with a body shot, no on edoubled him up with one,and if for arguments sake we say he was ,Marciano has to take all Liston's salvoes to get there.
The fact that Liston had his jaw broke in the 4 thrd against Marshall yet carried on losing a split decision, indicates there was nothing wrong with his heart,imo.
Liston 's nose was not just bleeding against Williams ,it was broken.
I see Rocky dropped enroute ,and stopped by tko mid rounds, cut and bleeding.


"The year 1959 was a banner one for Liston: after knocking out contender Mike DeJohn in six, he then faced Cleveland Williams, a fast-handed fighter who was billed as the hardest-hitting heavyweight in the world. Against Williams, Liston showed remarkable durability and punching power. He also revealed heretofore-unsuspected boxing skills, nullifying Williams' best work before stopping him in the third round of an "incredible" contest that many still regard as his most impressive performance. He rounded out the year by stopping Nino Valdez, also in three."

 

Of course we both know there is a great deal between wanting the fight and being fully mentally able to fight. Training camps can go great but if doubts are there once the bell clangs.. tension can take hold. It is a tribute to Liston to say so.

.Patterson being psyched out for both Liston fights is a popular, well established opinion among boxing people within the trade. Now I can make allowances for your attempt to question my psychological profiling (WTF???) But it is an opinion worth taking up with the late, great Angelo Dundee who shared this view point with me.

Liston did a wonderful job on Patterson, no doubt about it, these are Sonnys best wins ever but the psychological factor plays its part. It is not insulting to Sonny to sugest that it played a part in those wins. His blows landed, he was pin point and forced those results with his fists. He backed it up with sheer talent yet his energy and reputation also made an impression.

Without getting all irrational with me, in light of popular views, isnt it worth considering the psychology and how much of a mental asset that was to Liston and if it worked against all his foes?

 

Its funny how a two time Heavyweight champion who fought the vast majority of his fights in the heavy division gets dismissed as a natural lightheavyweight ? Since he was as heavy as Marciano in title defences does that apply to Rocky?
How about playing the card below?

"A modern sized heavyweight who lost to a 174 pounder, won the title off a natural lightheavyweight "
Who said, " heavyweight is heavyweight"?:think

Here is a report of Marciano's 33 rd fight against Red Applegate who had won 1 of his last 12 fights.



1951-04-30Willis Applegate

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Rhode Island Auditorium, Providence, Rhode Island, USAWUD1010
referee: Dolly Searle
This was a bruising, crowd-pleasing battle. Marciano won handily enough but failed to even knock down his opponent, who had fought only twice in the previous two years. Applegate's best round was the third, which the referee also took from Marciano because of a low punch. Red landed plenty of good punches, typically in the early parts of rounds, but Marciano almost always came back later to take the play away. Marciano's best round was the sixth. The attendance was 4167 and the gross gate was $7,6l6.
Impressive?

Ring Magazine founder Nat Fleischer wrote that in terms of boxing ability Marciano was "crude, wild swinging, awkward, and missed heavily. In his bout with light heavyweight champion Archie Moore, for example, he missed almost two-thirds of the fifty odd punches he tossed when he had Archie against the ropes, a perfect target for the kill."

 

F. P. "I insisted that I fight him, because I don't feel like a champion if there is someone I'm ducking.I gave him his chance and he won ,and I'm stll glad to this day that he got the shot."

B. I . Did Cus want you to fight him?
F P. No I went over Cus and insisted on the fight." Patterson also said he planned to fight no1 contender Machen whom he expected to beat Johannson , but of course Ingo won.

Boxing Illustrated interview with Patterson , October 1995.

 

-Given the film quality I possibly missed the uppercut.

-Williams landed some good ones to the body still, especially the one in the first round that got his attention. Liston had a high guard and was open, but many were also blocked in the later rounds as he figured the predictable and tiring Big Cat out.

-In the first round, Williams was certainly out jabbing Liston. Liston adjusted though in the second. Certainly evidence that Liston's jab was a real refined skill and not just a big reach.

-I thought Big Cat had good hand speed for a big man, but I think Marciano's quicker punches in the Layne, Walcott, and Matthews' fights are comparable. Big Cat also slowed down considerably after the active first round.

-Williams appeared to have longer arms than Liston, the commentary notes Liston's corner was telling him to crowd. Williams was helpless on the inside when he wasn't punching wildly at Liston's guard, he would start to get hit and try to back up unsuccessfully. Williams simply had no defense when he wasn't punching, and after the opening flurry in the second, he wasn't punching much. He reminds me a bit of Frank Bruno in that regard. The shorter armed Marciano was much more capable on the inside and protected himself better.

-And that's good in this case. Marciano backing up would get him murdered like Williams did. Because Liston would just go on the chase and lunge with those long right overhands.

-Liston was certainly hurt to the body in this fight, he dropped his hands and went to the ropes. Leading to Williams scoring with his most flush jabs.

-Commentary only notes a nose bleed, so that's what I had to go on. If it was revealed Liston's nose was broke, I wouldn't be surprised. Nose breaks like that are pretty common, especially getting hit straight on like that.

 

McVey won't answer that. At least he has not date. When his agenda is compromised by facts, he'll go of tangent and run from the question!

I asked him the same. In addition, I asked him what video he saw on Williams that makes him look as powerfully as names he offered such as Cooney, Ruddock, or Morrison. Still crickets...

 

Are you aware your post is total nonsense.
Read it , a chimp would do better.
I've answered his question by stating that Cooney,Foster,Ruddock,Morrison ,Lyle did not ko top ten heavies .If that is a prequisite of being named a big puncher its the first I've heard of it.The Ring named Williams as a terrific puncher are they wrong?

Does Williams hit as hard as Moore and Walcott? ANSWER THAT. Cretin

 

Later rounds? The fight didn't go 3! Liston wasnt helpless onthe inside though was he? He was very effective fighting at close range check out some of his fights and how he bombs short guys with uppercuts.

I don't see any indication that Liston was in any trouble in either of the Williams fights. Marciano was not fast of either hand, or foot, he certainly could not match Williams in hand speed, and his reach is minuscule compared to Williams ,and Liston's.

 

Not strictly true since Roger Rischer was ranked 9th when Williams flattened him in 3 rounds (though stopping the rising young Ernie Terrell in 7 was probably a more impressive achievement).

 

You do know this post is nonsense? Read it and decipher what you have attempted to write. I can rebut the previous question easily, all I have to do is ask which top ten boxers did,Mac Foster,Ron Lyle,Tommy Morrison,Razor Ruddock ko? Then further ask did Williams hit as hard as 38/9 years old Walcott or 41 years old Moore?

Let me see your contribution to this thread is that you noticed that Williams did not ko either Bethea or Machen? The inference being he was lacking in power.

Bethea was only kod ONCE, by Liston.
Machen was stopped three times by Johannson when he was caught cold in the first round and was absolutely bombarded before being stopped [,an example of terribly bad refereeing.],tkod in10 by Frazier when he was past his best. and tkod in his last fight by Boone Kirkman when he was 34. Since you have been crying for answers , perhaps you'd like to answer this?