Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

The "next two rounds" if the harmless description "later" bothers you.

No, his corner apparently was instructing him to close the gap on the rangier Williams and make it an infight because Williams was helpless on the inside.

Whatever you define "trouble" as. He was outjabbed in the first round, apparently suffered a broken nose from said jabs, and gave the visual impression of being hurt from a hook to the ribs.

I disagree, I've seen Marciano throw short punches just as quick as Williams does here. Williams was slowing down after 3 minutes of action anyway, and Liston overcame the handspeed disparity by making his punches count. Williams was just flicking away, but Liston would slip his jab with simple movement and slam a single hard jab flush into Williams' face. I suspect Liston would be the slower man against Rocky, his speed is more comparable to old Louis and Layne than Charles or Moore, certainly not Walcott.

I don't recall arguing Maricano's reach being greater than Williams, in fact I said "the shorter armed Marciano" :huh

 

My mistake - an error in snipping bits out of the "Quote" tag rather than confusion over identity but careless all the same!

 

The second fight shows Williams landing with bombs ,Liston covering up and weathering the storm. The commentator does refer to Williams having Liston in trouble in the 1st rd of their first fight so maybe he admitted it after the fight?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pO6gqaQ5uC4

 

No problem.:good

 

I never suggested you did.:huh

I take issue with you saying Marciano would be faster of hand than Liston I disagree. I 've addressed Liston being "hurt " in another post which has the link to the 2nd Williams fight ,and shows Liston stoically taking bombs, regrouping and advancing.

 

I was really impressed with Liston's defense and boxing skill in this second fight, at least the first round. His movement is so minimal but it does the trick. Just effortlessly slipping everything the longer Williams is throwing at him.

In the second round, Williams does appear to get some solid shots in the exchanges, maybe not the cleanest but he does land his left hook, but Liston is all over him. Looks like Liston suckered him when he went to the ropes to draw him into a brawl..not sure. But as soon as Liston started throwing back, Williams goes all Bruno in the Headlights.

I don't like Williams chances against most punchers, its not surprising he got bombed out by Satterfield.

Liston showed good skills in these matches in dealing with a taller, reachier opponent with faster hands and power that demanded respect.

 

Even handed post again!

 

The view I'm talking about is that Floyd could have been psyched out. This is the popular view that I and many boxing people share. This is the point.

Yes Floyd wanted those fights because he was a man of honour. He felt it was his duty. Like a kamikaze pilot also has a duty. He trained as well, was confident but he blew it. Both times. Floyd had issues, he was sensitive. Great fighter. Liston had a hex on him though.

I'm telling you now I know Floyd wanted those fights. When I said he did not want them deep down I meant once it started. I didn't expect you to trip me up on an expression. Things change when the bell goes. How many times have we heard that? "I felt great, I wanted to fight, then the bell went." That's what I am talking about. And you know it.

 

Cleveland Williams was a very big puncher but not a great finisher... Much like Earnie Shavers, another guy who didn't take out many, if any, elite heavies near their prime but who everyone agreed had top flight power.

 

Patterson just couldn't get his Gazelle punch on Liston, Ingo even predicated this based off watching the Machen fight for Sports Illustrated, "His left hook won't work." or something like that. Liston used his long jab to not so much hit Patterson, but create space, and throw him off. Patterson than tried to clinch and regroup as Cus teaches, but Liston just started laying into him with those killer short hooks. I think Patterson said looking back, that was his biggest mistake, he should have moved on the inside instead of trying to clinch a guy that strong.

Here's a great analysis from SI when they had good writers and comments from the fighters. I like the sparring partner quote, seems accurate. As great as Patterson was, he seemed to forget what he was doing and do stupid stuff from time to time, more mental lapses than fear:

In the fight's first exchange, Patterson slipped under Liston's jab and threw a strong left hook past Sonny's ear. The force of the blow impressed Liston, as he admitted later, and he danced lightly back with far more grace than had been expected of him. This was to be Patterson's only attempt to dominate the fight. Aside from one leaping right, he never used his speed again. Occasionally h; took a step back but he never tried to fly beyond Liston's reach. Instead, he stayed inside and in that hard ground lost the fight. It was a passive, abstracted acceptance—like a steer dreamily awaiting the sledge. It was "the lingering mind" which has bedeviled and hindered him as a fighter. Besides this dazed surrender, Patterson did not punch enough and frequently tried to clinch with Liston, which is as implausible a way to fight a strong 215-pounder as one could imagine. In these feckless clinches he only managed to tie up one of Liston's arms. A grateful Liston found there was no need to give chase. The victim sought out the executioner. In the clinches Sonny mauled Floyd at will, beating him about the kidneys with his free hand. Body weight was a factor here, too. Liston draped himself over Patterson, leaning on him with his forearms while Floyd meekly struggled. Liston often moved him around into more comfortable range and position like a painter arranging a still life. Once he grabbed Floyd by the neck and yanked him into a clubbing right; frequently he held the champion by the shoulder or arm to set him up for a hook.
At first Liston's punches were long and seemingly without direction. Floyd evaded many of these by radical crouching and bobbing and weaving, but some collided with his back and arms. "I could see practically every punch coming," Floyd said, "but he threw so many slow punches." When about one minute had elapsed, Liston whacked him to the kidneys and Patterson's legs seemed to lose their bounce. All told, Sonny banged Floyd with perhaps a dozen kidney shots, some of them random punches.

"Floyd was frightened all right," said Ben Skelton, one of Patterson's sparring partners, "but it wasn't of getting hurt. He had stage fright. He never did the things he trained all those months to do. It wasn't that he couldn't do them. He did them beautifully just a few days before the fight."

What a strange champion Patterson was. What a suffering, bewildered and confused man. He fought superbly only twice in recent years against Archie Moore and against Ingemar Johansson the second time The rest of his fights ranged from bad to mediocre. Often it was only his condition and reflexive responses that sustained him until he was charged up enough in body and devoted enough in mind to concentrate on his tough trade

 

Even when his experience was so vast against younger inexperience men, from 1 fight Radamaker to his KO loss to Ingo & his wins Floyd always showed great heart and experience just was easily dropped and hurt, I think punchers like Louis, Marciano, Liston, Tyson possibly Baer+ Schmeling, Frazier,Lewis would always be too much for Floyd. Floyd had great ring experience and was a smart guy and he had a solid amateur pedigree and much high level sparring as a pro under Cus, as he aged he showed his experience vs semi-green puncher like young Quarry, Bonavena and Ellis and against Ali looked good but he was still dropped quite often

He looked like a deer in the headlights vs Liston X2 (like Spinks vs Tyson) but IMO a strong puncher without any major flaws would be all wrong for Floyd & always.

 

Not at all. It's well known that a psyched out fighter can't get going before he takes a punch. That's my point! It effects his accuracy, his reactions. It is well known.

Too much tension in the first round effects timing and reaction speed. I don't need to insult anyone's intelligence to express the obvious. Sometimes danger works for a fighter, it accelerates his focus, sometimes it can be a fine line for emotional fighters and the occasion can overwhelm him. You cant predict when it can happen.

I don't like to use the word fear because out right fear is somewhat insulting but doubts or the tension of danger gives the wrong thought and the wrong moment.
It takes longer to process the task at hand.

You want proof? Look at Floyd in those Liston fights for Pete's sake! Many people have used observation to decide. Reading between the lines Floyd half says it himself. He was disappointed.