Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

That makes sense. An absurdly powerful and dangerous fighter. And when in top form, apparently durable enough to top Gomez in a toe to toe brawl.

 

he wasn't ranked in the Ring ratings until after the Williams loss, the article does not say where he was rated, was it the North American rating or a so called official rating, he does not show up in Ring until after his loss

 

No. I never said it was a fact that those fights were fixed. I just find it astonishing that it is used as an excuse so often to absolve Sonny of any weakness. My own take is Liston gave it a go until he decided he could not win. First time he blamed an injury because he was tired and getting beaten, second time he made rather more of a flash knock down. Both times he chose mid fight not to continue.

 

Moore had what, 130 kos over 90 were against men not in the heavyweight division.As far as I can ascertain from a cursory look ,his kos over any kind of heavies were.
Buddy Walker
Jimmy Bivins hvy/lhvy
Bob Baker
Roger Rischer
Bert Whitehurst
Willie Besmanoff
Pete Rademacher
Alejando Lavorante
Bob Satterfield hvy/lhvy

This obviously does not mean he was not a great puncher but it does say that the vast majority of his stoppages were over men not in the heavy division ,and of those that were, only 7/8 at most were ranked at any time. It's not important ,at least not to me ,but you made a point of it ,so I looked it up

 

According to Floyd himself this is what he said in Peter Hellers book "in this corner"

"Against Liston I got stopped. That night Liston was a better fighter than me because it was a night that I was just a walking shell, that's all. When the bell rang, I was like a robot from all the things that went on before the fight."


He then talks about the presure of representing decent America, getting calls from both Bobby Kenedy and JFK telling him to keep the championship, that he was good for the youth of America. According to Floyd when he would have rather have been "up a mountain secluding myself" on the night of the fight Floyd was given a trophy at a dinner by Bobby Kennedy himself and told to keep his example up!

.…… Now does this sound like a man who thinks he gave his best against Liston and was as focussed as he could be? Note how he says "on that night Liston was a better fighter than me" because Floyd clearly feels Sonny beat the worst possible version of himself.

Regarding the rematch all Floyd had to say was :

"I was going to get out there and prove that I can fight him his way and win, hard-headed, you know, and I walked right into it"

Which sounds exactly like a man who felt he could have done better and knew he totaly blew it. First time he was a walking shell of himself in the wrong mental condition to fight, second time he got carried away with himself using the completely Wrong tactics. So did Sonny ever fight the best version of Floyd Patterson?

 

Quitting and fixing are not the same thing. Do you think quitting and fixing are the same thing? Please tell me what you think a fixed fight is?

I think quitting is where one guy thinks he cant win, he's tried so far but it is a lost cause. He quits.

 

what is brilliant is you think Floyd was not psyched out even though he called himself a shell the first time. Floyd says his tactics were wrong the second time but the film shows he showed no more focus than the first fight. If he was as psyched out as he was the first time (perhaps he was) the best tactics in the world won't work. Hesitation, lack of reactions all heightened from being overawed etc etc would make him the sitting duck he looked like. Why couldnt he beat sonny to the draw? He had faster hands after all? Never mind Sonnys reach, I think a focussed Floyd was faster the Liston and more accurate than what he showed in those fights.

No doubt Liston beat the best heavyweight out there when he beat Floyd. But where as Floyd was better either side of those fights against other fighters I don't think Liston was as good again. Floyd was poor in those fights. Just as all champions were poor losing. Those fights represented Listons best and Floyd's worst.

 

It is not unrelated. You said I thought it was a fact that Liston threw those fights then used an example of me saying Liston had a 50% quit rate in world title fights to prove how this means Liston threw fights?

The 50% quit rate refers only to the fact that in four title fights Liston quit on a stool and then tried to quit on the floor in the rematch. Ok the fight was called off because Liston tried to stay down long enough to be counted out after a legit knock down. Nothing to do with taking money at all in a pre arranged way. I don't think so anyway.

 

thank you.:good

 

Starting at 1945 he recorded 50 knockout wins over these HWs:

Joey Jones
George Parks
Napoleon Mitchell
Teddy Randolph
Odell Riley
Colion Chaney
Georgie Parks
Verne Escoe
Jack "Buddy" Walker
Jimmy O Brian
Jimmy Bivins
George Fitch
Solomon "Dusty" Wilkerson
Jimmy Bivins
Bob Sikes
Phil Muscato
Vernon Williams
John Thomas
Art Henri
Abel Evaristo Cestac
Alfredo Lagay
Victor Carabajal
Alberto Santiago Lovell
Embrell Davison
Chubby Wright
Bob Dunlap
Leonard Dugan
Toxie Hall
Sonny Andrews
Al Spaulding
Frank Buford
Bob Baker
Bert Whitehurst
Bob Dunlap
Sonny Andrews
Gene Thompson
Willie Bean
George Parmentier
James J. Parker
Alain Cherville
Roger Rischer
Bert Whitehurst
Bob Albright
Sterling Davis
Willi Besmanoff
Pete Rademacher
Alejandro Lavorante
Howard King
Mike DiBiase
Jimmy Bivins

HWs who went the distance:

King x5,Valdes x2, Norkus, Henry, Besmanoff, Sheppard x2, Payne, Bivins , Tiger Ted, Cestac, Sys, Turman x2.

Losses to Ali, Bivins, Maricano, Patterson.

HW record 68 wins (50 KOs) 4 losses(4KOs) 1 draw

65% KO ratio 74% Win KO ratio

Below HW: 117 wins (80 KOs) 19 losses (3 KOs) 9 draws

55% KO ratio 68% Win KO ratio

:good


50 knockouts may not be the majority of his career 130 but its still a significant chunk and puts him in elite company with Wlad, Baer, Foreman, Louis, Shavers, Primo, and Big Cat. That's one way of looking at it.