Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

I'm a twat for insisting they were quittages? Given the choice of quittages or fixes which of the two were they? What are the alternative factual explanation of what actually happened in those clay Liston fights? Tell me.

 

Hah! Brilliant.

The second fight stunk to high hell. The first was just a fighter getting old over night. It happens to every fighter who stays on too long. According to Classicists, you are far better if you quit at 32 because your back has an ouchy.

 

wow,pretty impressive heavyweight run & good work

 

Over night...
The wear and tear of blasting poor Floyd for two years took its toll at the top?

Usually fighters get old over night after too many tough wars or really going off the rails. Liston had but a few competative fights. He liked to party but was usually still impressive enough in training for people to flock to see his night train training act. The incredible bag punching, standing on his head, the medicine balls being heaved at him and bouncing off him like he was superman. Usually the impressive training and going off the rails don't go together. But perhaps there are exceptions.

 

He has a pretty great HW resume, maybe not up there with the elite all time greats, but better than most. I don't like the implication he was just a great LHW who occassionaly beat up some HWs, his success above 175 is a big part of his career and what makes him great.

Also have to consider alot of his great LHW opponents in Charles, Maxim, Johnson, and Smith were impact players in HW division.

 

It is a smart decision to retire once you cleaned out the division and there is no big fights on the horizon. Frazier was never the same after his 27th fight and the way Marciano trained it had to tough on the body but he had about 4-5 fights or 2-3 years left in him.

Marciano wanted to have at least one more fight to make it 50-0 but Valdes lost to Satterfield, Floyd was not going to fight heavyweight until Marciano left and there were no $$$ fights out there. He may had some back problems but I think it was another way of saying he wanted to get away from Al Weill and the 50 % cut and tricky math .

Anyway once a champion cleans out a division, rematches all tough fights he has to think about when a good time to retire would be, after all this is not acting and a swarmers style is short lived.

Marciano fought in the window of his prime and was smart enough to get out on top, he ducked no contender, was an equal opportunity champion and was a smart and articulate speaker who made a good living outside the ring afterwards.

In today's times and mega-paydays Rocky may have been a bit more greedy and stayed a bit longer but his decision was perfect for the time.

 

I'll take your word for it, I'm not trawling through that lot.

I see you included wrestlers and that the vast majority of those are ham and eggers whom Bob Foster would have stopped, and he never beat a good heavyweight.

 

The vast majority of every fighter's KO list is going to be "ham and eggers"

I even said, Moore got more KOs at HW because the talent wasn't as thick as it was in the loaded LHW division of the 40s and early 50s.

It seems the majority of Moore's KOs were MWs and HWs, with the least amount of his 130 at LHW as can be expected when he was facing Charles, Maxim, Johnson, Hall..etc.

 

absolutely and his run leading up to Marciano was quite impressive only marred by a DQ and a disputed decision that he avenged with a KO in 57 strait fights and after the brutal beating he took from Marciano (I dont think anyone could say otherwise) he still had 11 wins beating decent opposition in Howard King X2, James Parker,Frankie Daniels, Yolande Pompey before taking on Floyd 14 months later

 

Athletes get old just sitting on a coach or going out for the mail. It just happens. Especially if they are pushing 40. It is not the last outing that does it but Father Time and the accumulation of all the battles meeting in a happy moment.


Or, again, are you one of those who claim that Walcott was prime for Marciano?

 

true but Marciano did turn pro late and with each contender 5#1 and 1 #2 cleaned out the division, I would have liked to see him beat Valdes or Baker for a clean 50-44KO resume but they were not marketable at the time because of losses to Moore & Satterfield, everything was a live gate and Rocky was getting the short end of the stick with Al Weill and there was no one on the horizon 49 fights is still at lot for a heavyweight...but those were different days

 

But the most plausible conclusion is quitting surely? Even the "unable to continue" scenario is a choice not to take a fight to its actual conclusion the way champions usually are prepared to go. Tyrell Biggs went all the way through a fight with a broken collar bone and he wasn't even a champion. The sport is littered with such story's of fortitude. The Italian Maffia angle is just an angle by comparison.