Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Walcott getting old overnight after using himself up in the war with Marciano, (not to mention a terrible concussion where he was out for minutes) is more understandable than Liston getting old over night between his last victorious fight with Floyd and his first fight with Cassius Clay.

 

you compared marciano with tall southpaw middleweight Alan minter...

 

You agree that Patterson was a shell of himself and psyched out the first time. The second time you think Patterson was much better, faster than the first time and at his "absolute prime". Going by the film of the second fight I don't think floyd was.

I am saying that I don't think Patterson looked faster or much better. He looked as tense and as hesitant and as hittable as the first time. In fact Liston got going earlier than in the first fight. He could tell Floyd still wasn't a threat.

Regardless of not feeling as much pressure before the fight and having a good camp when the bell rang floyd was the same. Now if you agree he was a shell the first time you either agree he was a shell the second time or you want to believe he was better but still got smashed to smithereens because Liston was so good. If the film shows Floyd not taking the initiative and not looking better and faster second time around I am inclined to decide he was just as psyched the second time. He got hit and panic set in. This time he was facing his demons head on and regardless of how well he felt before hand when it came down to it the performance shows to me that Floyd still could not hold it together. It dosnt look like he was over what happened the last time. He's fighting two people, he's fighting himself because he wants to fight and Liston.

There is a moment where the bell goes and Liston has not quite turned around to start. For a man who should be wanting revenge for last time Floyd was not running at Sonny to get in first before Liston was ready. He hesitates, waits then starts once Sonny is looking at him. It's not the reaction of the most fired up fighter I have seen. By comparison Floyd was like a hungry wild cat in his rematch with ingo.

 

Most 39 year old guys, 70 fights into a heavyweight career, having gone 11-8 over their past 19 fights, would be pretty used up, Rock or no Rock.

 

If you say so, I'm always wiling to defer to your technological insight.

 

Maximum LOLage lol:

 

Walcott was certainly a more live champion on the night he faced marciano than the Patterson who showed up for Liston. Teddy Brenner said it was the best Walcott ever looked, where as Patterson said he was a shell of himself.

 

People say a lot of things. Even when the numbers confirm otherwise. Walcott was at the tail end of a long, brutal career wherein he was largely a trial horse brought in last minute from his day job to get beat up. He had gone 11-7 over his last 18. He was 38 years old. Patterson was 27 years old, would fight another decade and post some of his best performances.

 

The numbers show Walcott wasnt a more "live" champion on the night he fought Marciano than the psyched out floyd that Sonny beat? Does the film?

Floyd was younger but he did not get going or look himself in either fight with Liston.

 

Really ? Ingo beat one guy in Machen of any note … Liston crushed Williams twice, destroyed Valdez and flatted Harris in 1 while it took Floyd 12 .. Cus wanted nothing to do with Liston, absolutely nothing … he knew …

 

The film shows Walcott fending off a younger, fitter fighter for as long as he could, then getting tired and sloppy.

I am sure Liston's physical superiority had nothing to do with Floyd's failure to "get going".

 

Liston deserved his shot, but not until 1961. It was not Sonnys fault that ingo landed the fight with Machen in 1958, that win eclipsed Sonny in 1958.

Liston beat Harris in 1960. Valdes was not #1 when Sonny beat him because Machen and others had already beat him. It is well known Williams was not yet a top ten fighter until after the Liston fights.

Like I already said, the wins in 1960 were what made Sonny, the wins before that could not warrant mandatory status.

For sonny to have been truly avoided would have meant him having better wins over current rated fighters on win streaks before 1959 than Ingo. Nothing Liston did until 1962 was worthy of interupting the Patterson-Johansson series. Sonny was only first in line once it was resolved..

 

The film shows Walcott fighting his challenger every step of the way though. Does the film show Floyd doing the same? I've never read Walcott say "marciano fought the shell of myself".

 

I don't know what fight you're watching, but it isn't the same as the rest of the world. Patterson fought like a rabbit in headlights, and only threw a couple of decent right hands out of desperation when he knew he was on the way to being KO'd.