Have you not been a part of the conversation? Iis this a serious question? You haven't answered anything - i'm totally dis-satisfied by your attempted answers. In fact you don't even seem to understand what it is you are talking about at this point. I've been trying to get you to explain the technical symptoms displayed by Patterson that defines this "tension" for pages and pages, most especially in relation to other fights where Patterson is less aggressive than he was against Liston. But you just can't/won't do it. You also don't seem to understand that this has been happening, because you think you have been giving me complete answers (whilst assuring me of your pro status). I'm not so much yanking your chain as preparing your noose.
Technical symptoms of being psyched out? In relation to other fights? I know what you want, you want me to say I can't offer you anything other than my opinion because there is no technical detector or contraption that can prove the technical symptom of being psyched out. Well fighting is not like that. Where is the technical detector for glass jaw or a world class punch? Or a phantom punch? Patterson appeared tense waiting for the bell, but as you say Floyd had a look about him in other fights, to me this is a difference. Once the fight got going he did not look loose. Other times he was looser than this. You could argue he got caught before he settled down but it is more than that. In other fights he may have moved defensively but not quite so as tense. Not so one punch at a time like. The second fight was even worse than the first fight, there seemed no spring at all. If anything it was the first fight he showed more conviction to respond to the situation, the tension was stalling him from the word go. He fell apart, that's the truth. By comparison Liston was instinctive, Sonny was responding like a hungry animal. Floyd was responding like a car with bad spark plugs, even if he showed a few moves.
Of course!! Look, I watched quite a bit of boxing this weekend. By your standards, Broner was "psyched out" against Maidana in the first round. He behaved very much like Floyd. I just don't think there is enough physical footage to make the hard deductions you are making. No, I want you to explain yourself. It's not unreasonable, nothing strange about this, and if you can't or won't do it - say that. Don't mealy mouth for page after page after page. Of course it does. I understand the differences in the behaviour of Spinks in Spinks-Tyson relating to every other first round I saw him fight. And if it doesn't work like that, what was with that half-assed technical breakdown you provided on Patterson-Johansson III trying to do exactly what you just said you can't do because boxing doesn't work like that? Your posts are riddled with inconstancies and contradictions. So it was the same but different? In the end you've just written the same thing again in this post, which is what you do year on year, but it means very little. "Floyd was responding like a car with bad spark plugs." What the f*ck, you expect me to read this **** and go, "ah yes, now I understand." To me, Floyd looks about the same as he did at the start of Bonavena and others. This is how he fought against punchers sometimes. This is how he sometimes boxed. He is fluid enough to slip jab after jab he is fluid enough to land a springing left hook, he isn't in full flow, because like 800,000 other fighters (not an exact number before you start asking me about it at the expense of every other point in the post) he took more than 100 seconds to establish his normal rhythm. Liston, for that matter, isn't loose either. Floyd was probably intimidated, was boxing accordingly. Dempsey was intimidated against Willard by his own admission and boxed very cautiously for the first minute. If Willard had caught him with his uppercut and got KTFO, you would be telling people he couldn't fight properly in that fight. I believe that Patterson's strategy was fine (you seemed to have claimed that it was both too aggressive and not aggressive enough in this thread) and I think that his caution was normal in the circumstances. And you certainly haven't shown any different.
He proberbly did the same stuff but the difference was he was more tense. Not responding fast enough for it to be the same.
There have been many fightesr that lost due to a combination of circumstances that was not typical of them either before or after even though Floyd was dropped often and KO'd and dropped prior to Liston numerous times & KO'd by INGO it was not his MO, Floyd grew from the loss and I can compare him to George Foreman in overcoming his weakness but IMO his loss to Liston a combination of poor mindset,wrong style opponent, wrong fight-plan...the best strategy for Floyd vs a puncher would be to get out of the early rounds and hope the opponent would fall into your plan but lets not forget Floyd was getting dropped and was recently KO'd shortly before I remember reading Floyds book years ago and Cus's opinion that he should avoid guys like Liston had to sit on his mind or at least his subconscious mind. It is common knowledge at the time that Cus would have kept Floyd at the lower weight until Marciano retired because he felt these were the wrong guys for Floyd to fight. funny but Cus did not fear punchers when he had Tyson but his biggest fear was Tyson hurting himself by losing focus & mental strength credit to Cus he knew his fighters A big part of boxing is mental, I don't think anyone can deny that, not all mental but a large part...I think in the Marciano-Walcott 2, Tyson-Spinks, Liston Patterson,and Ali-Liston among others the mind played a strong part as well as other factors
Then how to explain his superb defensive work, or his snapping left hand on offence? If you're saying that he's slow, why is he so fast? Patterson gets hit ONCE and things go wrong. He was always going to get hit properly once, early. It's not tension. It's related physicality.
I saw that fight too. Broner fought with more confidence than Floyd, he was taking a beating but he had a stupid look about him like he still thought he was in charge. That was not Patterson against Sonny at all! Broner was keeping out of the way but his body language could not have been more different. He was under fire but there was more defiance and control of his senses. He did not crumble. HE kept reacting under fire and kept it together in the first round. Floyd could not because he did not look like he was reacting corectly, he might have made a few moves but under fire he was a shambles. It's not just the power of the punches or the strength of Liston, it's the delay in the responses. Some of the blows were glancing but the effect was more because Floyd was too static on impact. He was bracing himself for impact.
I don't think he was that intimidated either, but he throws fewer punches in three minutes than Patterson does in two, initiates many, many more clinches, backpedals much more quickly than is normal for him. Inactivity, running and clinching are all recognised signs of an intimidated fighter. Patterson exhibits none of these, Broner exhibits all of them. So this, basically, is about body language for you?
No, it's just part of it. If you add that to the other stuff, not reacting well under fire, being static at the moment of impact, bracing himself, not looking particularly loose apart from sporadic moments. The tension prevented him from reacting instinctively the whole time. Floyd was able to make Sonny miss, and he was able to land, I accept that but conviction was absent and even glancing blows made too much of an impression because he appears too tense under fire.
He didn't react well under fire because his punch resistance wasn't equal to the power that was delivered. Liston hit him hard enough to hurt him every time he landed a hard punch - do you accept that?
totally agree. At top level a one round blow out has as much to do with the loser playing into the hands of the winner. Either by complete blunder, wrong tactics or with the mind not being ready. Take Witherspoon against Smith as yet another example. A very good defensive fighter just blowing it on the night also. You can blame his prep for the fight and other crazy stuff but his mind was not there against a man he schooled last time.
I accept Liston hurt Floyd, of course I do. Punch resistance has a lot to do with anticipation and being able to roll rather than tense up. Sometimes a fighter can take a hard punch without the same impression each time. If a fighter has settled down he takes a better shot. A psyched out fighter never settles down. A good punch is always a good punch and yes, Liston landed good punches on Floyd. More so in the first fight in my opinion but still good punches. He was throwing bombs.
I agree, once a fighter is stiff and tense his punch resistance weakens, a perfect example would be Andrew Golota who was a strong solid guy but froze against Lewis,Tyson and others but appeared to take some good shots from Bowe and others ...mental was a large part of Golota's downfall but of course the punches he took were instrumental its just that the tension and anxiety caused him to freeze in some fights.
