Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Moore dropped Rocky and Liston punched much harder, Liston gave up against Ali because he couldn`t cut the ring off he wouldn`t have that problem against Marciano. Duran gave up against Leonard in the No mas fight because he too was fustrated by movement, if someone came forward Marciano style against Duran they couldn`t take away his will I feel it`s fair that the same logic should be used for the Liston V Ali fiasco.

 

Style wise, this is not good for Marciano, but there are other factors to consider.
Mental toughness could really be significant in this one. Rocky will not be afraid at all, nor will he go into the ring thinking that he will lose or even might lose. Stamina could also be a major factor. Liston would have a size advantage and a battering ram for a left jab, as well as knockout power in both hands. But he was not tricky, fast and agile like JJW, in fact, he appears to be average in speed and methodically predictable. If Rocky survives the early rounds the fight could become one of attrition, with the emphasis on mental toughness and endurance. Rocky could win in that scenario.

 

I think you need to look at the chronology of what you are saying. If Sonnys prime was 4 years before he fought Patterson that takes him back to being unrated in 1958 when Sonny was coming back from a two year absence from the ring due to his incarceration.

What you are talking about here is Sonny being the best contender when He was fighting Ben Wise. Nobody got a shot out of fighting Ben wise what are you talking about?


It is a fallacy that Liston was kept waiting four years. His career started over in 1958 from scratch after two years out.

1959 Johansson deserved a shot at the title before Sonny Liston because he was ALWAYS rated above Sonny in the rankings. By the time Sonny was #2 contender Ingo was already the champ and tied to a rematch with Patterson. This was the rematch era nobody was getting a shot at the title whilst those rematches were resolved.

 

You're not getting it. Giving up sitting on your stool the greatest prize in all of sport (the worlds hwt championship) is a clear indicator of lack of heart. It's one of the reasons many historians do not consider Liston an ATG. If he quit vs Ali it's very possible he would quit in another very tough fight.

 

I read that D`Amato protected Floyd from Sonny, Liston may have been able to beat Ingo if they met in 1959 because he was slimmer than when he was champ, look how slim and sharp he looked in the 1st C.Williams fight, very good performance.

 

I used to think that too before I extensively researched this but if ingo was #1 contender after knocking Machen out in one round to earn an automatic crack at the champion why would ingo then need to fight somebody lower than himself in the ratings?

Liston was an outstanding contender in 1960. Before that he was always behind Johansson.

D'Amato gets criticised for protecting Patterson but when you look at the chronology Floyd was not that protected really. Jackson was #1, ingo was#1 and Liston was #1. Harrison was #3. The only reason Machen and Foley missed out was because their eliminator ended in a draw so Harrison was selected. In fact at one point Machen, foley and Pastrano (all rated highly together) all lost to Europeans ingo, London and Cooper in quick succession. London was #6 and he was taken as a warm up only weeks before the Ingo fight. Redmacher was taken only weeks after Jackson as a bonus fight. So with Liston being behind ingo at all times there was no real window for Liston before 1962.

 

Totally correct, Choklab, rematches were written on stone. No step aside wheeling and dealing then. In December 1961, on the same night, Sonny and Floyd kayoed Westphal and McNeeley, which set up their title fight in '62.

 

Exactly. The rematch clause era was a tradition upheld for years. Charles got his rematch with Walcott. Walcott got his rematch with Rocky. Patterson got his rematch with a Ingo. Ingo got his rematch with Floyd. Floyd got his rematch with Liston. Liston got his rematch with clay...all contenders had to wait while these things were resolved.

Patterson had just beat ingo as per the rematch clause. Liston and Patterson first fought on the same bill in order to promote their upcoming fight before facing each other. They both took a weak opponent each as a warm up. Nobody was ducked.

 

The Leotis Martin fight isn't relevant at all. Liston was a middle aged, alcoholic with heroin addiction by then. Anybody bringing that into the discussion is a joke. It would be a good fight but Prime Liston systematically breaks down Marciano and stops him inside 5 rounds.

 

What has all that avoidance dribble got to do with what i pinned you on? Don't skulk away from what you said.

You claimed Martin was not noted nor regarded as a puncher. I provide proof to the contrary and you go on a tangent running away from your own deceitful claims. It's all there in black and white.

 

My claim was that Martin was a light puncher in comparison to Marciano and that Sonny outweighed all the men who beat him. Can you dispute this? Actually I really don't think martin should be regarded as that much of an all time puncher. And I stand by that. Compared to Liston, Martin was as much of a cruiserweight as Marciano was. Leotis gave away 20lb to flatten Sonny.

You claim martin is (surprisingly) listed on some top 100 heavyweight puncher list by Ring Magazine which seems quite generous because Martin was no world beater. If that makes him a "noted puncher" you certainly did not bother to mention how many places higher Marciano was on it. I would like to know what was the best "noted puncher" they rated martin above? Certainly martin should be rated higher than somebody like maxy Rosenbloom. I think maybe he hit about as hard as another 190 pounder like Jimmy Ellis. It must be slim pickings once you get past 40 or so heavyweights anyway.

It is still a pretty big thing that Sonny quit in a title fight no matter how noted the sub 200lb men Sonny lost to were.

 

Interesting that Sonny still went on to defeat a future world title challenger in his next fight. Wepner was a big tough handful.

Nobody was mentioning Sonnys addictions going into the Martin fight. Sonny was 14-0 , 13 by Knockouts, since the Ali fights and rated #5 at the time. Sonny was coming off a good win over Henry Clark. Sonny was 13-5 favourite to beat Martin.

 

You are hands down the most deceitful and dishonest poster on this board. Only one other poster is comparable to you. There was no "in comparison to Marciano" mentioned. You got caught out and now lie about what you said even tho it's staring you right in the face for all to see. Tsk, tsk.

 

Listons physical prime was more than likely prior to 1960. If we believe the census from 1940 Sonny was ten years old at that time making him 30 in 1960. Generally a fighters physical prime would be prior to 30 years of age.

 

And you have the most suitable name of any poster. You are indeed a right John Thomas.

My exact words from post #82:

"8. Were the two men who knocked out Liston greater punchers at world level than Marciano?"

That's what I wrote in post #82. If I said anything else on another post you are splitting hairs. That was my main point -and it's true. It's also true Leotis was 20lb lighter than Sonny when he knocked him as flat as a pan cake. And that Marshall was lighter than Marciano too. And if those two defeats were outside of Sonnys prime there is the quit job in the middle of both of them isn't there?

Now I prefer to debate sensibly on here rather than have to respond to such desperate outbursts.

It is a pity You have a warped habit of trying to prove me as dishonest when ever I raise something That upsets you. You can't disagree you can only look to trip me up. My points are legitimate. If you still think Sonny wins that is your opinion. I am fine with that.