Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Now you not only jump topics but jump posts? Really? You are the absolute pinnacle of obnoxious rudeness.

The two quotes were from post #99. There is nothing in there about Marciano's power comparatively.

Take ownership of your dribble for once.

 

It's beyond sad.

 

He used to infuriate McGrain until he eventually stopped responding to him, it's easy to see why!

 

What are you talking about? This is my post #99

They were both under 200lb and I don't think they were noted punchers. What's wrong with that?? I even said "all three were not noted punchers were they?" I don't see how Martin rating higher than maxy Rosenbloom but lower than Marciano on some top 100 list you say you found makes Martin what anybody else would call 'a noted puncher". How low down the list does someone stop being a noted puncher? You still won't tell who the best puncher Martin was rated ahead of in this list or how many places behind Rocky Martin was. We don't know if he was inserted only because he knocked Liston out. So let's see this list.

I can whole heartedly say I have never heard anyone say "ooh that Leotis Martin, he could really hit" I just don't hear this in ATG puncher debates. The names that come up in pubs and bars in these kinds of debates are Liston, Dempsey, Marciano and among non champions guys like Shavers and Tua. I have never heard Martin pop up. And that's why I do not count him among noted punchers.

 

Well whist you and the right honourable John Thomas slap each other on the back with this pathetic tag team deluding yourselves over my dishonesty and reminisce over my infuriating Mcgrain many moons ago let me remind you of this post of yours.

Now I could assume this was a mistake because I think Joe Louis won the title at 197lb or so and he also defended his title at 207,211 and as featured in a title fight as high as 218lb but if I was like you (or the John Thomas) I could leap on this and disrespect a reasonable poster and accuse you of being dishonest. Unlike the two of you I will give you the benefit of the doubt here because it really is a very small issue. I doubt you deviously grasped at something knowing I wouldnt bother to check all of Joe Louis's weights in title fights.

This is such a pity. I get accused of going cross eyed about Marciano but in truth I haven't been offended at all that folks think Sonny might win. All I have done is raise points worth considering as to how this could be tough for Liston at the very least. I personally think Sonny would probably lose (as do almost half of the voters on this thread) but it would be very very tough and perhaps career ending even for the winner.

Again all the two of you are really doing is NOT disagreeing with any of my points but just looking to trip me up on correct facts. Shame really.

 

Takes a lot to get McGrain to that point, wow. He certainly took the intelligent option tho. One can only take so much obnoxiousness.

 

Let's see this list..

 

Did you really just try to use liston beating CHUCK WEPNER in his next fight as proof he wasnt that washed up, old, and full of heroin against Martin?

That is the equivalent of holding Tyson's loss to McBride as evidence. Liston was bare minimum 38-40 if not older by then by most estimates and a junkie. He even confided in Foreman that he was just in it for the money at that point.

 

Liston was past his best yes. The fight community at that time did not forecast Sonny would lose to Martin though. Are you suggesting if you were around you would know more than the fight community of that time?


Sonny was #6 in the world and 13-5 to win that fight. There was no evidence in that 13-0 streak Sonny was on that he was "full of heroin" at that time. I don't imagine it was common knowledge.

It is very difficult to gage how far a fighter has declined when he is still winning fights by knockout even if it is a level below his best form. People backbthen thought Sonny was still doing pretty good for a guy who quit for the title.

Liston of 1960 would have knocked out Wepner or stopped him quicker. Sonny of 1960 would not have lost to Martin.

 

I dont think i know more than the community back then. My point is that we now have the benefit of hindsight and were more aware NOW of how chaotic Listons life was during this time period than they were. What you think athletes normally just tell reporters "ive been popping mollies in training camp"...???

-We KNOW Liston was damn near 40 if not older. MANY experts say this.

-We KNOW he wasnt consistently going after "world beaters" post Ali and confided in George he was in it for the money.

-We KNOW he was doing heavy drugs in this time frame. Even his wife knew.

-We KNOW Leotis Martin was Listons sparring partner and thus could pick up on his bad habits.

-And anyone with a functioning brain KNOWS beat chuck wepner doesnt prove that he wasnt well past his prime.

You are being intellectually dishonest.

 

foreman jab said we should discount the Martin fight altogether because Liston was full of Heroin and an alcoholic. To which I said Sonny was still on a good run, had recently beat Henry Clark, and still went on to beat a tough kid like Wepner in his very last fight. Is that dishonest or factual?

Sonny had beat Henry Clark, Sonny was rated #6 by the WBA, sonny was favoured to win, Sonny did beat up Wepner in his last ever fight didn't he?

That's not to say Sonny was still a great fighter but even at these stages of his career he was showing no signs in the ring that he was this shambling wreck we must discount altogether. Should we discount all fighters currently rated #6 in the world who are on 14-0 win streaks?

They say he dabbled in drugs. We know he drank. Sonny was a mysterious man. Unless a fighter goes into the ring full of drink or drugs nobody can know how serious it is. Sonny was always good in the ring. He was not so great as in his prime but he was still good enough to be rated where he was at that time for a fight he was favoured to win.

After beating Wepner there were plans to continue his career. Sonny was scheduled to fight Chuvalo but he was later found dead.

 

Missed out one opponent Average weight for Louis in title fights disregarding fractions as I also did for Liston is 203lbs.
I do say you are deliberately dishonest and deceitful and several others have that opinion of you, as pms have shown me.
I'm not concerned about your opinion of me it isn't at all important.
You said Liston and Louis were the same size I've shown Liston was considerably bigger you haven't admitted that and you won't . Dishonesty and deceitfulness.

 

Nothing funny about dishonesty!

 

Liston was considerably bigger in the body than Louis. Check their measurements!

 

Which 212lbs prime all time great puncher did Marciano beat to prove your statement?