Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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I say he could really hit and I saw him beat up Thad Spencer at the RAH .

 

Liston is not an ATG. He gave up on his stool the greatest prize in all of sport the first time he faced an ATG.

Which ATG fighter did Liston ever beat?

 

This is gonna be good!!! Can't wait for the reply's...

 

Hey perry, some people on here will think you are being dishonest too? They dont like stuff like that. Mcvey gets pms warning him to speak against that kind of talk...

 

what do you base this on? You are the only one who ever said "Joe Louis's average title weight was 196lb" on this forum. I never called you dishonest over that did I?

In fact joe Louis NEVER weighed as low as 196lb in ANY title fight. So how can an average weight be less than the actual starting point? Where have I been so unintentionally misleading? Or anywhere close to it?

In title fights Louis was less than 200lb on only a few occasions as a younger man than Sonny ever was in his title fights. When he got close to Sonnys presumed championship age Louis was "around" the same kind of weight as Sonny. No matter what you say joe Louis was Still an elite fighter at exactly the same weight that Sonny was for Patterson.

Now you can bleat on about calf measurements and who had the bigger Adam's apple, longer fingers or whatever until the cows come home, but what it all boils down to is that when two guys are the same weight and one is visibly taller most sensible people will say they're both about the same size.

 

Let's get some popcorn out Rock.

 

Sounds like a conspiracy.

 

Liston did once quit in a fight. Then again, so did Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray Robinson and Roberto Duran. This is why it's a mistake to try and judge a fighter's ability or legacy based on a single factoid. It's like when people triumphantly point out that his record in title fights is 2-2. Yes, and Tommy Burns' record is 13-1, but who would you rather find yourself facing?

Liston went 15 years undefeated by anyone but Muhammad Ali. That's including an easy win over a prime, HoF defending champion who would remain a contender for the next decade. He never beat an ATG? Maybe not, but you could say that about a lot of famous champions. What ATG did Jeffries or Johnson or Dempsey or Marciano or Holmes defeat? Not an ageing legend or a great light heavyweight but a genuine ATG heavyweight in his prime.

 

Marciano?
Ezzard Charles, Walcott, Louis and Archie Moore are considered ATGs.

Johnson?

 

No. Again Liston gave up the greatest prize in all of sport sitting on his stool. A heavyweight champion is judged more harshly in the regard as THIS championship historically has special implications. Regarding Louis vs Liston prime weights WE KNOW as per Louis himself his prime and best weight was 202 lbs. Most believe Liston was born in 1930 which would make his prime physical years prior to 1960. That Liston was not a 215 pound hwt. I would say it was closer to 210 pounds.

 

That's the point I was making in the last sentence of my post. All of those famous scalps you mention were either past their prime, or light heavyweights, or both.

Lots of fighters have a win over a faded ATG - Bill Lang, Danny Williams, Jeff Horn... that doesn't make them ATGs themselves. That's why I'm much more impressed with Liston's victories over prime, ambitious contenders than I would be if he'd beaten, say, Ezzard Charles in 1959.

 

If Moore was so shopworn when he fought Marciano as everyone keeps claiming, then how did he manage to win 35 more fights after losing to Marciano? Many of them were by KO and TKO. In fact, after Marciano, Moore went on to win the LH title from Tony Anthony in 1957 via KO. Then after losing it he won it again in 1958 by KO against Yvon Durell. He sent Durell to the canvass four times during that fight before putting him away in the eleventh. Then in the 1959 rematch he sent Durell to the canvas three times before putting him away again by K0 and retaining his LH title. Then in 1960 Moore TKOd Willi Besmanof and won the American HW title. Then in 1961 he regained his LHW title by defeating Giulio Rinaldi via TKO.

All of this after the Marciano fight.

BTW
Archie weighed approx the same as Marciano in that fight. So he was not fighting at a LH poundage. Just a one-fourth of a pound difference.

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1955-09-21 : Rocky Marciano 188¼ lbs beat Archie Moore 188 lbs by KO at 1:19 in round 9 of 15

Another factor that is ignored is that Marciano was way past his own prime and about to permanently retire while Archie was in good enough shape to continue his career with amazing successes.

 

The other thing is there was a lot of murkiness and rumour around both fights to the point where many still can't make up their mind on what probably did or didn't go down. Personally i think the first was above board and Liston not expecting such opposition and trained accordingly. The rematch was a little suss for me. Who will ever know.

 

This has to do with a matchup between prime Marciano and prime Liston what exactly?

 

Four individual posters have use the term dishonest when describing your posts.Are they all wrong and you are right? I call it as I see it and 3 others agree with me!