Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Lowry 177lbs nearly ko'd him!

"It was Lowry, not Marciano, who was on the verge of scoring an early knockout, stinging Marciano with two terrific rights in the first round and then rocking him with two mighty uppercuts in the second. By the fourth, a staggered Marciano seemed just one punch away from being knocked out."

 

I could have saved myself some grief if I had followed your example and given him a miss!

 

Let me know when you find a liar to correct.

I noticed you mislead about Lee Savolds 100 wins and 70 knockouts as well as the (cough cough) the weight of Louis's average title weight.

 

I've never intentionally lied or cheated since I have been on this forum and I challenge you to give one example of me doing so. You have a negative reputation concerning how you "present things" here and it is well deserved!

 

Well I don't think it is well deserved at all. I don't think anybody intentionally lies or cheats on here. I think a few of you get spooked each time I present credible facts against your views that cannot be denied and rally together to find ways to discredit me. You cannot disagree with the points so this "intellectually dishonest" baloney was invented about me.

Throughout this thread I have bore no grudge against those who favoured Liston yet I have somehow created outrage by offering persuasive arguments for Rockys chances.

I listed I think 9 points that required a yes or no answer to that were all true and nobody said there wasn't any truth in those points.

1. Is it untrue that Rocky beat a #1 contender who was not only one inch taller and exactly the same weight as Sonny Liston but 8-0 in the last 12 months?

2. Is it untrue that Sonny get his jaw broken by a guy lighter than Marciano?

3. Is it untrue Sonny practically quit in half of his title fights against a lighter puncher than Marciano?

4. Did any reigning HW champion ever get stopped on a cut?

5. Is it untrue Rocky beat or knocked out all the men he hit?

6. Is it untrue even Westphal landed blows on Sonny?

7. Was Sonny Liston ever rated above Rocky Marciano on any published ATG top ten list BEFORE the internet generation?

8. Were the two men who knocked out Liston greater punchers at world level than Marciano?

9. Was Marciano ever knocked out?

 

Are you genuinely expecting someone to go through this list answering "yes" or "no" to each in turn without any further comment?

 

1.No Liston was 6'1" ,Louis 6'1.5"
2.No its not untrue, what is the relevance of the question? Marshall was clowning and Liston started laughing at him and got clipped while his mouth was open.
3.This has never been established,he retired in the first Ali fight only he knows how bad his injury was.
4.No ,one was in danger of doing so but qwas given one more round,his name? Marciano.
5. He was undefeated on paper though many thought he got gift decisions against Lowry 1,and Lastarza 1.
6.Of course Westphal landed somepunches ,was he remotely competitive in that fight? No.
7.Yes! several publications ranked him as one of the top 3 heavyweights of all time! World Boxing, Boxing Illustrated,Boxing News too I believe.
8 No. Was Liston prime for either fight? Because we match up prime versions when we make head to head matches or are you matching 41/42 years old version of Rocky against the Liston that fought Martin?
Everyone of your questions is loaded and you don't even seem to see it,then you protest when you are called dishonest and deceitful.I suppose it's just your nature. I can make a list about Marciano

1.Is it true he was in danger of being ko'd in his 22nd fight by a 177lbs journeyman who had lost his last 7 fights? Yes or No?
2.Is it true many felt that the journeyman in question was robbed of the decision? Yes or No?
3. Is it true many felt Marciano lost his first fight with Lastarza ?Yes or No?
4. Is it true Marciano struggled with journeyman Keene Simmons whom had won just 1 of his last 5 fights and would lose his next10? Yes or No?
5.Is it true Marciano was in danger of losing that fight by tko? Yes or No?
6.Is it true Marciano butted ,Don C*ckell opening a cut on his face that hampered him throughout the fight ?Yes or No?
7.Is it true Marciano hit C*ckell after the bell, hit him low, and hit him when he was on the floor? Yes or No?
8.Is it true he butted Walcott in their first fight opening a cut on his eye?Yes or No?
9.Is it true that he fouled Lastarza several times in their second fight?Yes or No?
10.Is it true it took him 9 rounds to finally stop C*ckell , a fat ex light heavyweight who had been ko'd by 162lbs Randy Turpin? Yes or No?
11.Is it true Marciano was in imminent danger of being tko'd by Ezzard Charles in their second fight because of a split in half nose that would have spelt the end to his title in todays boxing ring? Yes or No?
12.Is it true Marciano most famous wins are over 4men whose average age was36?Yes or No?
13.Is it true Marciano only defended his title against one challenger of 200 lbs or over and he was a fat ex light heavyweight whose metabolism went haywire after a bout of glandular fever, a challenger with 11 losses on his record, 6 by stoppage? Yes or No?


Get the idea?

 

Again, bringing up liston vs Leotis martin is about as dishonest as ali vs spinx. Liston was "world class" because of his "ranking" at #6 and being on a winning streak but so was Ali!

Ali had was also in his late 30's, on a "win streak" against "world class" opponents like Shavers, Wepner, and two VERY controversial opponents in Norton III and Jimmy Young. But its OBVIOUS to anyone who doesnt have an agenda that Ali had diminished tremendously by that point. His reflexes, timing, speed, power, and stamina were atrocious compared to the early 70's and ESPECIALLY the 60's.

If someone were to make a thread pitting (prime) Ali against another boxer and used footage from the Leon spinx or Jimmy Young fights as evidence against Ali, that would be intellectual dishonesty.

Lets not pretend you dont understand this analogy choke-lab.

 

The big issue against Liston is quitting on his stool giving up his worlds hwt championship. It's a huge deal. Past all time greats went through hell to keep that championship.

Losing a fight when he was around 40 years old is not a big issue.

 

To be fair these are all reasonable questions you raise about Marciano though I'm not sure in my opinion that many of them discount his chances with Liston. If Liston had not quit against a lighter puncher or lost twice to men who were lighter by 20 pounds some of these factors might build a case against Marciano.

When Marciano was troubled in his pre title fight days by lighter guys that is one thing, but Sonny was troubled by guys 23lb lighter than he was. That's the kind of thing I imagine puts Rocky in with a chance surely? Marciano was not troubled by 158lb guys was he? That's how small a guy needs to be to match Liston being decked by Marshall and Martin.

I agree with the head butting and rough tactics too.

Rocky is said to have been close to being stopped with a cut nose. But it's also worth noting no defending HW champion has ever been stopped on a cut.

Yes Rocky fought famous guys who were 36 but that's in tune with Liston who Paul Gallender (a Liston biographer) swears Sonny was twice the age of Ali making Sonny over 40 for the Patterson fights.

Every champ struggled before they became champion. My list about Liston was more about reminding people of overlooked tidbits from Listons story where as much of your Marciano stuff is not over looked at all.

Listons career has been less under the microscope so to speak. Many "mysteries" are used to excuse things.

 

Getting beat by what is arguably the greatest heavy of all time, whether injured on the stool or flat on your face, is not exactly a giant black mark on his resume. Marciano never faced a heavy anywhere near the ability or talent of a 22 year old Clay. His claim to fame was beating down shopworn old warriors. You're simply using different measuring sticks.

 

I agree that Ali losing to Spinks is comparable to Liston losing to Martin. That's a very good comparison that I agree with. I don't think it dishonest to bring it up however because we saw Liston getting knocked as flat as a pancake in this fight by a guy under 200lb who was once a middleweight. Martin did not knockout Jimmy Ellis but he could knockout an old Liston.

yes I agree whole heartedly with this summary. Liston was not fighting this calibre of men and if he were his deterioration would have been more apparent than it was and the Martin loss would have been less surprising.

Ali was not knocked out though was he? Everyone accepts Liston was past prime myself included. It's the knocking out in that loss by a twenty pound lighter man that is interesting.

I have demonstrated that I have understoood it mr Glass City Cobblers

 

His claim to fame was cleaning out the division when he was no spring chicken himself. How many times did Rocky have a weight advantage? Rocky did beat veterans but they were veterans coming off career defining wins. Walcott and Moore certainly were anyway. Charles was coming off some electric knockouts over Wallace and Satterfeild. Louis was shopworn but he was riding high all the same 8-0 in 12 months and the #1 contender.

 

Louis would never have been fighting if it weren't for the IRS. He was a one-handed mummy who was able to get by because the era was massively depleted. He would never fight again.

Marciano caught Walcott in his 70th and 71st. Another old man who would never fight again.

Charles was a shopworn who saw how depleted the heavy division was and decided to grab the brass ring. He would go sub .500 for the rest of his career.

Moore was another career lightheavy, another guy who saw how low the lay of the land was in the big boy division and made a charge. 175 was not only his proper weight division. It was the number of fights he had already fought as a professional.