Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Are you kidding? Every single fighter I can think of. I can't think of a single fighter who would miss three jabs then give up on the jab. The jab is the punch you throw. If the action brings the fighters closer then he might not use the jab, but chosing not to throw the jab because you've msised the jab? Doesn't happen.

OK, well maybe you didn't box at quite the same level as these fighters? Examples of fighters missing with the jab and continuing to throw it are so available on YT that it is impossible NOT to find one.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEYK2i2lOOs&feature=relmfu[/ame]

Above is Oscar-Floyd. Oscar misses with the first three jabs he throws and persists with it, using it to dominate the first half of the fight.

And yet Walcott, Moore and Charles all continued to throw jabs at Marciano and to score with them. Most of these men are outreached by Liston in terms of 6 or 8 inches.

You are presuming plenty here. First that Marciano can make Liston miss loads with the jab. Second, that even though a connect % for a good jab can be as low as 30%, meaning his missing 7/10 jabs is completely normal. So even if Rocky turns out to be as good as Ali in slipping the Liston jab - highly, highly debatable, arguably ridiculous - Liston will continue to throw jabs as he did in that fight.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp0RdiW8-bQ&feature=relmfu[/ame]

Above is Liston-Ali. Listin misses jab after jab after jab, a % of as close to zero as you will ever see in a fight with two world-class jabbers. He hardly lands one. Still, he persists with it.

Even in the situation you bizarrely invisage, Liston will continue to throw the jab. We know because we have proof of it on film.

Whatever your own extensive experience as a boxer tells you.

I'm tyring, believe me.

Not really. He was harder to hit with the jab than your common garden fan believe i think, but he is not a fighter that was incredibly difficult to tag with that punch, like Ali or Armstrong was.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeGFJI_ctVE[/ame]

Above is round one of Charles-Maricano I. Charles throws 8 jabs, and lands either 6 or 7 of them. He's landing at a rate better than 80%. This is absolutely enormous.

Marciano did get harder to land the jab on as the fight progressed though. This was due to his exceptional engine and grit. But here he has an additional problem, one you seem absolutely determined to overlook, namely range.

The range is an additional ten inches. Take heed of the manuevers Rocky employs to close the distance. He would have to start those manueveres 10 inches further back. That's an horrific handicap, awful. No swarmer has ever overcome a handicap even rmotely like it. It's enormously difficult; an Everest of a problem. Liston has so much time to adjust to Rocky's moves, an extra half second in a sport where the fighters work in miliseconds.

It is a prohibitive physical disadvantage IMO.

As we've seen, what you are assuming is contrary to what exists on film.
　
　

It arguably won him a close fight. The mauling sections of the fight were about 50.50. Where Louis shaded this was when Godoy was on the outside wehre repeated feints helped to keep him at distance where he scored with flicking straights and the occasional right hand - Louis is always winning when it is on the outside.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXfnKXS9Qt4[/ame]

As we can see above it is the only tool Louis has in keeping Godoy at range. Again and again he feints him back with it. In the first action you can see Louis land two jabs as Godoy bobs in.

God knows what havoc he would have wrought with it had he and extra 9 inches to work with. Certainly he would have had Godoy under much firmer control.

Regardless, Joe's eventual solution was the uppercut. Godoy had to take such pains to get inside that much shorter jab that he had to sell himself to that punch.

Against Liston, always ready with the upercut and quick to adjust, this is suicide.

 

Nice to see Gatti getting the nod, too.

Williams was an avoided puncher. He gets both over- and underated on the forum. He was a bit of a beast but he didn't tend to KO top line fighters, a bit like Ron Lyle, who also gets over- and underated.

 

Yeah, I agree with you, I was actually leaving it in the hope that choklab would bring it up as an example of Rocky's defensive prowess

Never mind.

 

At least i've provided an example. You haven't.

And Charles hits him flush as well as grazing him. And grazing punches still collect points. And Marciano isn't anything like as good as making fighters graze the opponent as you make out. And as usual you have provided zero evidence for what is admittedly the most reasonable in an absolutely fantastic series of claims.

OK, Charles was hitting Marcaino with power-leads instead of jabs. Jesus Christ, are you actually trying to sabotage your own argumetn now?


　

The latest in a long line of huge presumtions on your part. Liston had no probelm at all maintaining distance he was expert at it. See Williams one.

This actually increases Liston's advantage in range.

Buddy, in your head:

Liston misses with 90-100% of his jabs

Marciano is an ATG defensive artist

Marciano counters 100% of Liston jabs

The SEVENTEEN INCH reach deficit is not a factor

The smaller, weaker, less powerful man is going to dominate inside​

I'm quite sure you don't see the long shots counting :good

Louis is LOuis, Liston has a huge reach advantage, yes the difference in the fight between Louis and Gody (which is not that relevant) was the out-boxing, yes the extra 10 inches lol is going to be very significant here.
　
Finally, as i've already explained, the antidote is the uppercut. That squatting rushing attack is more vulnerable to that punch than any other. Basically, inspite of your bizarre attempts to paint the opposite picture, Liston is ATG in the two punches most needed to win this fight.
　

Marciano is a great fighter. Somewhere out there is a technical plan that is convincing in support of his victory. But this is not it. You have been shown to be pedalling mostly fantasy IMO.

　

That's only "funny" in your twisted version of reality, for most people it is a given.