Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Great stuff.

True about defense. Rocky regardless of being the biggest hitter Liston would have faced he still would take a lot to get in. Not sure how long that continues.

Vitali overrated but he still has the skill to frustrate Liston. Holmes would be the worse for him to face but wouldn't argue against one saying Lewis. 3 very skilled men but not getting into Vitali's weak era which isn't his fault.

A HW in their time is still a HW in their time. Tired of guys talking about boxing history like its one era. Yes the size difference but place them in this time and most likely they would be bigger which is why I hate doing that. Too much fantasy. Agree with the unmotivated Liston against Ali which I stated earlier but after you.

It'd be the hardest either were hit. Liston holds more advantages but Rocky could still pull it off somehow. If anyones dishing out a beating in this matchup its Liston I see.

 

1961 liston did not fight a rated guy. Then he went 2-2 in title fights, against 2 men (3 in one round) up until 1965. Its not a lot of championship action or that super a resume among the elite.

summerlin x2, whithurst x2, marshal x2, neal wealch, even cab, king and besmanoff gave liston so much extra resistance than Floyd patterson did it makes me wonder if many better fighters simply froze against Liston.

Liston still knocked out brave men but not elite fighters who realy gave proper resistance. I am not saying this makes Liston a bully I am saying thats how it panned out, the best fighters he knocked out never got going and offered nothing back. Marciano would always offer resistance and fire back.

valdes was on the skids when he met Liston and williams (whilst dangerous) was not proven at elite level. It leaves only the machen, patterson, ali and martin fights as sonnys best examples on film against elite fighters. Is that enough to put your house on?

 

I don't know who was rated in 1961, but by the time he fought Floyd in '62, there wasn't much left around to fight. In 1960 he dispatched Cleveland Williams, Zora Folley Eddie Machen, Roy Harris and Howard King. competition was pretty scarce after that. He was beating the **** out of contenders that Patterson probably should have been fighting himself.

You're serious right? Those two men you speak of were hall of fame champions in their primes. He beat the be-jesus out of one of them twice, while losing to the second man, who is now regarded by most as the greatest heavyweight of all time... How many other champions would have been better than 2-2, given that exact same scenario?

Am I to understand that Liston actually had a problem beating these guys?

Maybe that's because none of them were CAPABLE of fighting back, and it finally took a man who would surmount as the division's greatest heavyweight ever to stand up to him. It would be different if Liston was dethroned by someone like Ernie Terrell or George Chuvalo.. THEN you could say that " well all it took was for one man who didn't **** himself, etc. etc. " But when you have a guy who runs like a freight train through an entire division, beating all of its top fighters in emphatic fashion, and the only one who FINALLY beats him is the greatest of all time, it kinda puts a damper on that argument.

That's actually a lot of elite fighters and why are you asking me if I am willing to bet my house on anything? You responded to a post of mine that was addressing a lot of false information from another poster. If you're asking if I'd pick him to beat Marciano, then my answer is yes.

 

OK Liston did beat machen, folly and Harris when they were rated and he gets credit for beating Patterson as emphatically as possible …but nobody else Sonny had beat by then was winning fights against rated fighters. It is a good run but it is not an entire division. It is 4 men. 3 of them had been Kod within the last 18 months or so by other men. Nobody beat an entire division or era apart from Joe Louis, even he slipped up with Schmeling.

Liston did not beat Machen as emphatic as Johansson did, nor did he fight Johansson did he? Beating Patterson after Ingo might even take some lustre away for another champion.

If Sonny ran through an entire division where the hell were Ingo, Terrell, Doug Jones, Cooper and George chuvalo? After he was a champion Liston might also have fought Frazier, Quarry, Ellis, Bonavena, Spencer but he fought none of them. He did not duck them it just never happened.

All champions miss out on certain match ups, Liston and Marciano included, but Liston was not an uncrowned champion who dominated at elite level for as long -or against that many elite fighters as people think.

 

On film we have Liston beating two elite fighters and losing to two others. Its not the best elite resume in HW history.

 

one of them (marshal) did beat him, so yes it was a problem for Liston that one time.

The rest Liston beat but no more easily than modest contenders would have. some contenders even did a better job on them. Each gave more resistance against Liston than Patterson, folley and Harris.

 

Liston fought and beat the following men who were top 10 ranked. Folley and Machen were habitually ranked in the top two for most of the late 1950s.

Eddie Machen
Zora Folley
Roy Harris
Nino Valdes
Mike DeJohn
Wayne Bathea
Billy Hunter
Cleveland Williams

Keep in mind that several ranked fighters would not fight Liston.
Henry Cooper publicly stated that he would not fight Liston for any amount of money.
“If I saw Sonny Liston coming, I'd quickly cross the street.”

Johansson didn't seem eager to fight him.

 

You make a good point, but 187 is 187 and 210 is 210. There's not enough time difference between Marciano's peak and Liston's peak to say that there'd be any difference in Rocky's size if he'd been born seven years later, so I don't think it replies here. Liston was just bigger and would've always been noticably bigger than Marciano was.

 

He beat an all time great in his prime twice. Beat Machen, Williams, and Folley when they were in their primes. Beat Dejohn and a few others who were ranked. He basically cleaned out the division..

 

When Liston had 7 fights. Are we talking about the championship scene of the early 60's or aren't we?

He kicked those guy's asses and did so when they were at or near their best. I don't see the relevance of any of this.

 

He beat the best of his division.. Nothing left to argue there.

Did Ingo do as well in three fights with Patterson as Liston did in two?

So now we're to assume that Patterson was passed it?

Ingo and Cooper ducked Liston.. Terrell was not yet a world beater. Chuvalo was losing fights to Bob Cleroux, Pete rademacher and Joe Erskine and wasn't ranked until 1963, at which time he was #9 and in 1964 was # 5, when Liston lost to Clay. Doug Jones was never ranked very highly either.. Are you just arbitrarily throwing out names or is their a rhyme to your reasoning?

He was black balled from contention and most of the guys you listed wanted nothing to do with him.

I never made this claim... But he DID flatten an entire division prior to winning the crown and when I say "entire" I refer to its BEST participants and not every single Dick, Harry and Tom who wore boxing gloves...

 

Choklab loves Rocky so much he's risking getting thrown into a mental asylum to protect his name, that's how much he loves him

 

Right about the time as they didn't come too far after the other but for fact we can only go by what they did do and how they weighed at their time. If they are a champ at HW in their time they are a champ at HW regardless. Think people spend too much time in "ATG fairyland". Not attacking you just going by what my user title says for now "ATG list killah".

Still agree Liston would be bigger anyway but its silly to just bunch the eras in one. All of it is just a very subjective matter. I find it funny people take it so seriously to the point they dedicate their lives on a fantasy so much that they begin to live in one mentally.

 

Patterson, until he became older, was alway showing up on boxing experts of the 1070's list of worst champs. Cus D'amato ducked everyone, he had him defending agisnt a guy in first pro fight, and club fighters, while contenders waited..and waited...and waited..till Liston got shot. He was weak champ.

This 'He beat all the toughest in divison on way up..." is crap. No he didn't.


Reach is just wingspan, a stretching out of arms and measuring fingertip to fingertip, it's something they used as a stat in old days, and is usless in determining how good a guy can fight.

WEight? Marty Marshall broke his jaw, and in rematch had him down. Marshall was club fighter/journyman. He was also light heavyweight.