Rocky Marciano vs Sonny Liston

I do pick Liston.
Do you pick Marciano?
This isn't about legacies or posterity, it's about two boxers matched in a fight and which of them you think ,on the balance of probability will emerge victorious.
I say Sonny ,and my reasons are:
Better boxer
Better power
Bigger man .184/188lbs v 212/220lbs
Better cut- resistance
Better jab
Huge reach advantage. 68" v 84" = 16inches!
I think he controls Marciano at range and outmuscles him inside.
You may think otherwise but you have to convince me why. Marciano being a more respected fighter , a more diligent trainer and over achiever doesn't cut it.

 

Mcvey says that the best heavyweights of Rockys era had a combined age of whatever ...and that's calling me out?

What does that prove?

There's nothing personal within a debate. Just people offering different angles.

We can all think different things. Some stuff can be backed up and other stuff is less relevant. Like adding up the ages of the best fighters.

 

Ok then let's talk percentages. Liston is an increase of 17% on Marciano, based on championship winning weight first time of asking.

Chavez increasing by 17% is a LMW, not a MW. So let's say Chavez vs Julian Jackson to keep percentages the same, how do you see that panning out? You have a great champion giving away 17% in body weight against an opponent with less substance in their resume.

 

Wow I was wrong to the eye watering tune of one and a half pounds! Sonny was 198lb for his third fight I must apologize..

 

Liston weighed 198lbs in his 3 rd fight ,it was the only time he ever scaled under 200lbs for a fight.
The implication that he and Marciano were not that far apart physically is ridiculous.
For example
Liston had a 44" chest,Marciano 39"
Liston's biceps 17.5" Marciano's 14"
Liston's neck 17,5" Marciano's 16.75"

 

The relevance of their ages is that it illustrates that they were opponents past their prime ,as were his other two best victims Archie Moore 40/42 ,and Joe Louis 37.

Liston beat in prime versions of:
Patterson
Harris
Folley
Machen
Williams
DeJohn

 

Yes Sonny was a bigger man. He wore bigger clothes than Rocky but he fought the same size 1950s guys that Rocky fought. Sonny obviously felt he needed to be bigger so his weight increased. Rocky felt he could not afford to be bigger so his first weight was about as big as he got.

To begin with there was what 10lb between them. Sonny was comfortable gaining a bit more muscle so he did just that. Rocky slimmed down from 192lb because that's what he was comfortable doing at that time. Both guys did what they did to win in the ring. So what?

 

That's a bit closer then isn't it. Hmm. I certainly don't see a mismatch. Do we have to imagine this version of Jackson has previously lost to a Marty Marshall type the size of Chavez at the relevent part if his career that Sonny did?

Even so, Jackson deserves to be favorite much like Sonny deserves to be favorite. But the glimmer of hope for Chavez is knowing that men as small as he have troubled Jackson and that Chavez is a great fighter.

 

Exactly. Sometimes style and substance is quite literally outweighed.

You literally parrot this very point when you go on about the 18 year dominance of SHW fighters. And Tyson Fury has even less substance than Liston yet you give him that much benefit you say he should be in a different division , with Liston you ignore the size advantage consistently.

Other than your dismissal of Liston you have no consistency in the points you make.

I say the champ is huge, but the division is no bigger and I wouldn't be surprised to see the champ dethroned by Povetkin.

I say Liston and Rocky are both great men but given Liston is 30 pounds heavier and is just as adept inside he should be favoured.

 

And we all know big biceps are about as important as a widows peak when it comes to ring craft.

 

I think that in the era that Marciano and Liston fought in, the 1950s, size advantage was less of a factor than it is today. Guys like Valdes, Hoff, Powell, Williams, Baker and Holman did not dominate. Maybe if they had the diet and training programmes of today they would have.

Sonny had a size advantage over Marty Marshall who he beat 2 out of 3 times and then Sonnys size advantage took him all the way until he did not have a size advantage against Ali when he quit, Then later Sonny got knocked out by Leotis Martin who did not have a size advantage. So yes, in Sonnys day he had a size advantage that was relevant over most fighters but not all fighters of his day.

Today we have Fury who is following an 18 year superheavyweight stranglehold over the heavyweight championship. Yes he is so far less proven than Liston was in his day. But who is out there who has not already been exposed by the last champion? It's not like when Sonny was champion he had the proof of Valdes, Baker, Hoff and Holman's championship dominance the previous 18 years is it?