Rocky Marciano vs Sonny Liston

Yes I've always felt Povetkin has a realistic chance of beating Fury, I just think that Klit has shown the duplicate for a big man of that size to beat him.

It is much harder for Povetkin and men of his size who could be champion to become champion against a superheavyweight now that there is this back catalogue of championship fights showing how to use nothing but size to beat good fighters.

Is povetkin good enough? Yes. Will a big man let him fight? and will the big man use his size on him? Yes.

These big giants are HARDER to beat.

 

No, for a small man Wlad was impossible to beat so long as he could clinch. Does Fury have that same power to keep a man like Povetkin away from him? It's an unknown.

Lewis, Bowe and Rahman all struggled with Holyfield which shows a great man can still compete with the bigger men and actually can beat 2 out of 3 on the list whilst arguably beating the third.

Fury is unbeaten but the closest he came to losing was against McDermott and Cunningham and both times involved an inside battle he couldn't avoid. If Povetkin is the man forcing that inside battle I think we'll see Fury knocked out.

You need certain attributes to succeed at the top level, if clinching was punished those attributes would be a lot harder for a SHW when his opponent is a lot quicker and just as hard hitting.

Only one SHW has shown an inside game and that's Bowe. Even he lost to Holyfield.

Regarding Liston and Rocky, Liston had a great inside game so how is Rocky gonna beat him unless he lands a perfect punch before Liston does?

Picture Povetkin and Fury exchanging inside, I can only think of one winner. Picture Rocky and Liston exchanging inside, I can only think of one winner.

 

That's how Fury fought Chisora in their last fight.

still? This was 18 years ago. Nobody that small wants to stay so light and rely on skill anymore when they can bulk up or cut down to cruiser.

And he's stopped fighting like that.

why would they punish clinching after all this time? The pace of the division almost requires clinching. Fighters always come together from time to time and they are clever at falling in accidentally on purpose.

where is the next Hollyfeild?

Rocky crowded low. It was difficult to nail him clean and he was quite expert at making a man pay once he over reached. Inside Rocky was effective too.

Fury can hold povetkin off and bully him like he did chisora because referees allow it now. I don't think Sonny has the same leverage inside once Rocky mauls inside. The modern SHW game plan was not tolerated back then.

 

Chisora is finished.

That's the point, it takes a great smaller man to beat a less great bigger man. We don't know where he next Holy is, we don't if there will be a next Holy. But look where he succeeded and believe it it is possible.

They didn't let Wlad clinch Fury half as much.maybe they're wising up after a decade.

Rocky was effective but no more than Liston.

 

was that always the case? With a 15 round distance, the wrong kind of officiating, training that best suited speed and endurance they used to say "the bigger they are, the harder they fall". You didn't see "athletic" big men because the training had not yet been developed to empower them in the way it has since the post 1986 era.

exactly. Isn't that horrifying??

But what if the training that has developed the giant into a more effective specimen doesn't suit the smaller man? Then you get a situation where a far more talented fighter cannot succeed.

but could that have been because both guys neutralized each other within the clinch because the size differential was negligible? It was better to break them up to encourage open boxing since neither could possibly create an upper hand inside. The ref didn't do it to do Fury a favour, otherwise he would not have taken point off him.

which is why Rocky should be worthy of a realistic 50-50 chance as the more proven champion. How many guys did Sonny get past that were as you say "no more effective" than Sonny was. Was Harris "effective but no more effective" than Liston? How about Williams? Folley? Patterson?


Merry Christmas by the way.

 

How many SHW would you class as great though? By modern standards.

Not horrifying because Holy was incredible. Haye had all the talent in the world I believe but his inactivity cost him.

No you will always have big CW types who make the choice to move up.

Not 50/50 because when you get two men who are roughly of a similar skillset, but one man holds a 30 pound weight advantage it would be foolish not to favour him.

 

by modern standards I rate few SHW champions as great.

Yes, Haye had the world at his feet and blamed his toe. I also felt he had the talent but that the inactivity has hurt him. He's conning the public now.

these big cruiserweights are the real heavyweights though. 210lb, 220 this is muhammad Ali territory. The memory of Ali should not be classed within this no man's land wilderness called the cruiserweights that the public don't understand.

Between average guys absolutely. Between great fighters I should think proven reliability at World level comes into it.

 

Fury out boxed Chisora who isn't a puncher. Fury switch hits effectively too,and he is far more mobile than Wlad.

As I see it Liston beats Marciano all ends up because I can't see one thing Rocky does better .Liston was an excellent inside fighter who threw very effective uppercuts and hooks ,he wasn't a wild swinger and he was more accurate that Rocky with his punches. At range Sonny dominates Marciano with his pole of a jab,and to make matters worse Rocky cut pretty readily too.

 

I never had the privilege of watching him fight,but I saw him spar with John L Gardner and went to a " talk in evening," he gave.Ali is a big man!

 

So do I. I have my doubts about Wlad tbh and whether he was a great fighter or just a big fighter.

Yes but that is no slur. Holy was a big cruiser and is about the same size as Ali was. As McG says, Ali would be classed by everyone as a heavyweight. Even Marciano is classed as a heavyweight still.

Totally agree, but not between greats from a different weight class.

Merry xmas to you to.

 

Good tidings to you too. In the nicest possible sense of course.

Firstly I don't class Muhammad Ali as a cruiser.

I could wager that you could ask 2 million non boxing fans that they don't know that a man as big as Ali was on the night against Foreman could technically make cruiser with a 24 hour weigh in. And that's because they don't really know what a cruiser is.


So yes, quite rightly, nobody is classing Muhammad Ali a cruiserweight ...yet. "Yet" because big guys of 210-220 will soon be regarded as not real Heavyweights because they're not 240-260lb.

But ANOTHER 18 years worth of Superheavyweights dominating the championship and in pubs and bars the world over blokes could be saying "of course Muhammad Ali would be far too small today, why with 24 hours weigh in Ali could make that weight class between lightheavyweight and heavyweight...what's it called again?"

 

The underlined included Dempsey and Louis,I'm not sure Fulton,Willard,Carnera,Simon ,or B Baer would agree with you.

 

The trouble is the SHW is a new species that has dominated the championship all this time because they are big. modern advances have empowered the giant to a level that was unachievable for long limbed oafs before.

Marciano and Liston fought in roughly the same kind of era. People have come to decide upon Liston as the birth of the midern SHW. In truth Sonny was a longer armed heavyweight no taller than Leon Spinks and no heavier than comeback Joe Louis.

All the very best.

 

Not a species. Lewis, Rahman, Wlad, Tyson. You're talking about 4 fighters.

He is a big HW and could easily be bigger if he wanted to be.