Rocky Marciano vs Sonny Liston

Of that four only Wlad and Lewis could have scaled as high as 224lb without modern advances in diet and training programmes.

What the division has lost in skill it has gained with artificial size.

 

What do you base that on.

 

At one time with traditional training the heaviest a 6'1 -6'3" guy got without being fat was 190-220. That's how they trained them. The Same guys would be twenty pounds more now.

With traditional training 224-230 might have been as big as Lewis and Klit got. The sport technology wasn't there to make them any bigger and keep them as good.

So no, I don't think even Tyson looks the same in the 1960s. Klit and Lewis would be no bigger than Terrell. Rahman? He'd be no bigger than Liston for sure.

These guys are not born different. The training is different.

 

What do you have to base that on?

Especially when we have seen Carnera and Willard previously.

 

I base this on athletic 6'5" guys turning up after the 1986 micheal spinks moment.

For every Willard and Carnera there were a lot of knock kneed gangley string beans who "out grew their strength" under old methods. And circus freaks who went into wrestling because they could not make the grade in boxing.

Sports science has come a long way since. Those guys can find the right diet and make the grade now.

 

There were SHW fighters a century ago, there are SHW fighters today.

There isn't a division laden with them there are but a few who made it to the top.

True SHW fighters, men who would be cased as physical freaks, not just big

Willard
Carnera
Bowe
Lewis
Wlad
Fury

There are others but they never got to top spot. There are men who are big HW fighters but not as big as these freaks. All of them have lost to a man who is not a SHW himself, bar Fury though he came close.

These men are few aka and are few and far between. If there is a regimen now to hone their skills a regimen that did not exist prior, that can only be described as progress.

 

Lots of **** poor information here.

First the idea that because Liston has a much longer reach Marciano won't get in close. Pure uneducated ****. Marciano, Frazier, Dempsey all were trained to overcome a long reach. Being a small target by fighting low in a crouch, bobbing and weaving under a larger opponents guard. This expertise makes being a taller fighter a disadvantage as they now need to punch down and bend low themselves in order to land. Liston was no mover...he would be standing right in front of Rocky. Marciano would be on Listons chest within the first 30 seconds of the bout.

Secondly there was no dog in Marciano. He would fight until his last breath. He was an ATG because he exhibited ATG attributes specifically .......the ability to persevere in a tough bout against tough opposition and never quit no matter what. Liston generally is NOT listed as an ATG hwt champion because he gave up his world championship sitting on his stool because his shoulder hurt.

In terms of an ****ysis of this hypothetical matchup Liston had the power to KO anyone. Terrific puncher. Marciano also was a terrific puncher. Again he had the power to KO anyone. Marciano has the edge in conditioning, heart and will to win (by far and alway). In close its all Rocky while at distance Liston will be dangerous. Rocky in his low crouch will make many of Listons shots miss. Certainly Liston will land. Listons chance is early but no one ever stopped Marciano. Marciano will win if he takes Liston into deep water.

Pick here is prime Marciano. His low crouch helps negate Listons reach. Liston is not side stepping Rocky so he has no problem bobbing and weaving under his guard and pounding away with body punches. In close Rocky owns the fight. Liston does well against Rocky early but cannot sustain his advantage. Rocky surges late to stop Liston probably by two in 14 rounds.

 

:good makes perfect sense to me.

But a lot of folks on here don't want to hear it. Even the ones that back Marciano to beat Valdes will insist Rocky v Liston is a Patterson v Liston or Frazier v Foreman scenario.

A lot of people on here class a lot of fighters in this rediculous "swarmer" category with fixed views on the exact same outcome for all swarmers against certain fighters. No individual traits count. Presumably the world is flat.

 

Liston deserves to start favorite, Rocky has a realistic chance as a live underdog. So I make Liston favorite in that I accept my own personal view of Rocky having a good chance is strictly a minority view. I accept an overwhelming tidal wave of betting on Sonny. That makes Sonny favorite and Rocky the live underdog. I would put Monny on the Rock just like I did on Tyson Fury beating 5-1 favorite Wlad. I often bet on underdogs. I don't always win though!

 

Marciano was hit repeatedly by jabs from Charles,Walcott,and an ancient Louis anything they could do Liston could.
Charles reach was 73" Walcott's 74" and Louis'76" ,Liston's was 84"! The idea that this would not be a huge factor in this match up is nonsensical.

Punching down is a damn sight easier than punching up.

Why would Marciano own the fight in close? He would be giving away 30lbs to a man who threw excellent heavy two handed short shots inside .
No one ever stopped Marciano? No they didn't , how many tremendous punching 218lbs heavyweights with telephone pole jabs did he meet? Marciano was in imminent danger of being stopped on cuts against Keene Simmons and Charles. Marciano had 14 stitches put in the cut on his scalp against Walcott in their first fight,stitches on the bridge of his nose and at the corner of his left eye.
Against Louis ,Marciano was cut and even that version of Louis had no difficulty finding him with the jab and uppercuts. Marciano was cut around the left eye in the first Charles fight,had stitches after the Simmons one.Marciano had his nose split in half in the second Charles fight in a fight that would have been stopped in Charles' favour today.
Marciano was also cut agaist Moore.

Rocky's facial tissue would be extremely vulnerable to Liston's jab and heavy duty power .



Rocky's conditioning and stamina would not be a factor in this fight because the fight would not go into the later rounds ,Marciano would be busted up by the halfway stage.imo.

 

Of course.

 

Only Larry Holmes and Muhammad Ali can beat Prime Liston
no one else in Heavyweight History.

In making this decision I will stay until I die

 

I think most people expect an inside battle. The problem is Liston is just as good inside as Rocky. He hits just as hard and is just as durable and quick.

His 30 pound weight advantage is enough to favour him.

It's a great credit to Rocky we are even debating this fight. Most fights between greats who are 30 pound apart in weight would be dismissed as a mismatch.