Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston.

I was demonstrating the obvious cherry picking.Your point of comparison by the way does not hold water and here's why.

When Liston had his close fights with Summerlin he was engaging in his 6 and 7th fights!And there were no widespread cries of robbery.

When Marciano got the split dec over Lastarza he was having his 26th fight and there was a real furore about the verdict.
Jessie Abramson of the New York Daily Herald called the decision "paper thin and exceedingly odd." According to newspaper reports, it was condemned around ringside as a miscarriage of justice.
Hence the rematch. Now again when Liston lost a split dec to Marshall handicapped with a broken jaw I might add he was having his 9th fight! When Marciano squeeked past Lowry he was in his 20th& 29th fights and in the rematch his 30th. So not a fair comparison at all!
"Michael J. Thomas of the Providence Journal wrote, "Marciano did not win the fight. This reporter gave it to Lowry, six rounds to four.”

The crowd of 3,696 booed the decision and some wondered if Lowry had thrown the fight. "There were some questions as to whether Lowry, who had come close to knocking out Marciano in the second, third and fourth rounds, deliberately bogged down in his attack after the fourth stanza," Thomas wrote. "Lowry stopped using his uppercut after the fourth. He went into a shell and only occasionally landed power shots. He seemed to be carrying Marciano."

In his book Rocky Marciano: The Rock of His Times, Russell Sullivan wrote the following:

"It was Lowry, not Marciano, who was on the verge of scoring an early knockout, stinging Marciano with two terrific rights in the first round and then rocking him with two mighty uppercuts in the second. By the fourth, a staggered Marciano seemed just one punch away from being knocked out. But then, inexplicably, Lowry stopped fighting and retreated into a shell despite warnings from the referee to open up and a cascade of boos from the crowd. To many, it appeared that Lowry was deliberately carrying Marciano. Was foul play afoot? Was Lowry getting paid to lose? Or was he merely tiring? Whatever the reason, a revived Marciano managed to rally in the late rounds even though many of his punches missed their mark or lacked force. On the basis of his aggressiveness and constant punching, Marciano won a unanimous decision from the judges. Most observers felt, however, that Lowry should have won."
Lowry, who earned $2,500 for the fight, denied he threw the fight. "I beat Rocky that night and that’s it," he said. "He changed his strategy in the fifth round and made a fight of it, but I won two of the last six rounds after winning the first four. It was a hometown decision."
Show me any newspaper reports that have that kind of negativity about the Summerlin verdict! No doubt about the first fight!

John Summerlin of Detroit, Michigan's ranking heavyweight, was no match for Charles Liston, former International Golden Gloves heavyweight champion from St. Louis. Liston pounded out a unanimous decision in the eight round televised main event at Motor City Arena Tuesday night. The St. Louis slugger who weighed 206 pounds carried the fight through most of the early rounds and finished with added glory by staggering Summerlin, 193, into a corner during an explosive final round." - United Press

NB Summerlin would be ranked in the top ten the following year ,Lowry was never ranked anywhere he was a career journeyman. He had lost his previous seven fights and won just two of his last twenty!
Marciano's 6th and 7th fights?
Don Mogard who had lost his last seven fights and would win just 3 of his next ten!
Harry Haft a 5'9" 172lbs boxer who had won just two of his last seven and been stopped in four of them including his previous fight by non -puncher Lastarza.He would retire after the Marciano fight, just as well!


No comparison whatsoever!

 

liston and marciano both had their problems with Lightheavyweights. they both got knocked down by Lightheavyweights. marciano by the LH with the best knockout record.

 

That does not address what I posted last and you know it.The statement that Marshall knocked down Liston has to my knowledge never been verified but for the purposes of argument let us say it is correct.Liston a green novice
with 8th fights is knocked down
. Marciano the heavyweight champion in his prime with 48 fights under his belt is knocked down and according to himself stunned by a 39 years old fighter.Again no comparison!


"Early in his career, Liston faced capable opponents. In his sixth bout, he faced John Summerlin (18-1-2) on national television and won by an eight-round decision. In his next fight, he had a rematch with Summerlin and again won an eight-round decision. Both fights were in Summerlin's hometown of Detroit, Michigan.[17]

Liston suffered his first defeat in his eighth fight on September 7, 1954, losing against Marty Marshall, a journeyman with an awkward style. In the third round, Marshall nailed Liston—reportedly while he was laughing—and broke his jaw. A stoic Liston finished the fight but lost by an eight-round split decision. On April 21, 1956, Liston defeated Marshall in a rematch, dropping him four times en route to a sixth-round knockout. They had a rubber match on March 6, 1956, which Liston won by a lopsided ten-round unanimous decision."

 

all fighters have a learning curve. its once a champion reaches top level that counts. and we both know one of these champions did a bit better than the other as a champion.

im not so much picking fault with Listons early career as reminding you his experiences with Lightheavys are not so dissimilar to Rocky.

im happy to accept Rocky took a lot of grooming. liston by comparison, actually did marvellous considering his career stalled with inactivity between 1955 and 1958 yet by 1959 he was closing in on the ratings.

by comparison it took sonny 9 years to have 34 fights. rocky had 34 fights in two and a bit years from july 1948- april 1951, so if Rocky stank a few times in that time he had not been fighting so long had he?

 

Again I reiterate that I was responding to selective cherry picking. Marshall was 181lbs for that fight BTW.

 

when he knocked Liston down Marshal was still lighter than Archie Moore was when he knocked down Rocky. when you factor in how much bigger Sonny is than Rocky it does not say much for Sonnys chin. now im not saying it does, but perhaps this factor of the marshal knockdown strengthens the anchor punch as a legit KO?

 

Moore, Charles and Walcott were all the size of Rocky when they fought.

How many men did Liston fight his own size? No one of that quality.

Liston is the bigger man and would knock Rocky out but he wasn't better.

 

As McVey already pointed out, no one seems to be able to find a contemporary source backing up Marshall's claim that he knocked Liston down.

 

http://www.si.com/vault/1964/02/10/608210/the-four-who-baffled-liston

Everything you need to know is in this article.

The story about Sonny laughing to get his jaw broken in the first fight cannot be proven either way without film. It certainly did not make the Detroit Free press fight report and Sonny told it different ways on different times.

According to Marshall he decked Liston in their second fight and Sonny admitted Marshal "almost had him out" in the seventh round of their third fight.

In Rob Steens book on Sonny Liston p55 even Sonny's corner man Tony Anderson admits the referee scored a knockdown for Marshall in the second fight but he thought Sonny should not have got a count. marshal says Sonny took the eight count from a right counter.

There is no film but Marshall and Sonny's corner man talk about Sonny getting a count.

 

The point which I now repeat is Liston was a novice and Marciano was the worlds champion,if you can't see the difference,then I've wasted three posts.

 

Yes, I've read it. It's from 1964 and just uncritically repeats Marshall's account. As I said, no one can find a contemporary source to back Marshall's claim.

 

Marciano defended against one man of 200lbs plus, a tubby glandular ex light heavyweight Don C*ckell. Williams,Machen, Folley,De John,Valdes,Zech,Harris,DeJohn,Lincoln,Clark,all good sized heavyweights.

Liston didn't fight anyone of that age!lol

 

Yeah I read that about a year ago and its a crock of sh*t. Liston beat Marshall twice after losing a split dec because he was fighting with a broken jaw for 7 rounds.He ko'd him in the second fight and had him up and down like a yo yo in the third one where Marshall ran like a thief.
Whitehurst was out of the ring in the rematch trying to get back in after Sonny had belted him out only the final bell saved him from a ko.Machen fought a defensive fight and did not try to win.

It's a load of sh*t!
At no point was Liston cowering in a corner from Folley's attack. The fight lasted less than 6.5 minutes and Folley was on the floor twice for 9 counts in the second round before Sonny belted him unconscious in28 seconds of the third!
In neither fight was Liston in danger of being ko'd by Williams.

Mort Sharnik is a hack !

I'm finding your responses very disingenous and that's being overly polite!

 

what do you make of Tony Anderson disputing Sonny's count? if there was no count why would he dispute it?

 

WTF is Tony Anderson? Why would I believe him?