Rocky marciano vs the future champions

Except you base your analysis on anecdotal evidence, someone "standing out". Not on historical evidence. Which ATG since WWII as had the qualities Ali would have today, namely a lack of power and size? Holyfield, that's it. And while great, he was hardly dominant. He was 0 for 6 on my scorecards against ring top 10 shws. Describe Rocky in that way, though, and you come up with Frazier and Tyson. Again, neither one is likely to be successful today, but the double standard is troubling and irrational

 

I don't understand your criticisim of anecdotal evidence considering you're vague response.

I am saying athletic ability is a huge factor, you are saying strength is a huge factor.

The problem is since WW2 we have had plenty of atheltic boxers, I listed a handful in my previous post.

Tyson and Frazier are not like Rocky. For one they are a lot bigger. Could Rocky fight over 200 pounds, absolutely. Could he consistently compete with SHW fighters? I doubt it.

A 190 pound man is not going to walk through Wlad. A 220 pound man certainly can out speed Wlad.

Your lack of logic, your inundation of double standards and your stench of hypocrisy cause me grave concern.

 

For instance, which ATG heavyweights who were bigger than their peers lost to a much quicker, smaller guy who wasn't powerful vs a much smaller guy who had power?
Almost without exception, those losses came to fighters with power. Byrd Vitali is the only true case the other way, and you seem reasonable enough not to argue that showed much more than that Vitali had an injury.

 

Hmm, decent post until the end. Again, all anecdotal and off topic, and off course marred by accusing me of things you've show no evidence I possess, but apart from that great! The fighters you mentioned we're not hws, so, fail.

 

Also, which 220 pound men outspeeded Wlad, or any other ATG SHW? Some outpowered him, but never outspeeded when at a size disadvantage. It's easier for Rocky to gain 30 pounds than it is for Ali to power up his punches against much bigger men than he ever faced.
Also, you missed the point on the Tyson, Frazier, rocky comparison. They are all fighters who were smaller than most of their peers but also hit harder than average.

 

This is a good point. Wlad and Lewis' official prime losses to smaller men came via knockouts.

Power seems to more often than not be the X factor for beating size, not speed.

Look at Langford, one of the most successful giant killers in history. Even Joe Louis, he had fast hands, but his power was tremendous.

 

There have been many examples of fighters who have moved up in weight and won with skill and speed.

You've been on this board long enough you know yourself who all the greatest examples are.

But even just in modern times alone you have Jones Jr, Toney, Adamek (who was never considered fast until he became a HW), Chambers (had nothing but a speed advantage), Byrd, Haye (although he hits hard so you might not count him)

Wlad has built his whole career around stifling the inside attack of his opponent. Rocky has next to zero chance. I've seen Ali outjab a man with the same height and reach of Wlad so I know it's possible.

Every single fantasy fight comparison is anecdotal and subjective. Hence my ironic response.

We do not know which man has the better chance, we can only use our own under standing of the sport to deduce the outcome we deem most likely.

You think it more likely that a heavier Rocky can trouble Wlad more than Ali. I think it more likely that Ali can trouble Wlad more than a heavier Rocky.

Will we ever know who is correct? Of course not. But it sure is fun watching fights of past champions in an effort to bolster my argument!

There are very few examples of men like Wlad through history, an elite dominant SHW just did not exist before Lewis.

We have Lewis, Vitali and Wlad. That's it, a very small pool. Other men have been hevay and successful throughout history but none have shown this type of dominance.

I see the way Ali kept Terrell out at range and I think he can do that to anyone. Especially someone who can not possibly be in as good cardiovascular shape as he is. It's not a great example but it's the best I've got.

We know Rocky beat Shkor (a former fringe contending SHW) but other than that we have his fight with Louis. More patient than usual but still the same perpetual forward motion. Wlad will smother that attack, I've no doubt. Vitali is a bit of an unknown because of his lack of quality opposition, Lewis had issues with Holyfield in the rematch but still came out on top.

Could Rocky succeed in a one off match against any of the above weighing 220? Yes he could but I wouldn't back it. Could Ali succeed in a one off match against any of the above weighing 220? Yes he could and I would back it.

When discussing men of this calibre in comes down to fine margins of skill set and style clash, more than it comes down to a large portion of the man debating.

The beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Peace out.

 

Certainly "Anyone can weigh anything they want" but until recently it was not possible to weigh "anything they want" and still be successful.

In the modern era you can have dominant fighters no bigger than Marciano weigh over 230lb. But we did not see this in the 1960s, 1950s, 1940s, 1930s, 1920s and further.

Something changed

 

Cheers man, the respect is mutual.

 

For the record, those men were still very large heavyweights--not little guys with pop.

 

Good post.

 

I've already done a thread showing that more often than not, a HW championship changed hands to the man who was bigger.

This has happened since day one.

Since Jeffries continued walking down Fitzsimmons until he could stop him.

Since Foreman bounced Frazier around like a basketball.

Since Liston cut through Patterson like a knife through butter.

A lot of things change. That's life. Evolution and shorter fights mean people can be a lot heavier now.

 

True. Sanders at 6'4" 225 lbs would have been considered a pretty big dude in the 80's as would Ross and Brewster.

 

Good post. To each their own, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
But like you said, it's fun to argue, that's why we're on the forum. And there is alot of evidence that Ali would be no better off than Rocky, and maybe worse, re keeping up with progress.
I put a few responses directly to your points in the quoted section above, I'm going off my phone and have limited functionality, so read it as best you can.