Rocky Marciano with Ali's competition: Does he stay undefeated?

You can keep repeating that an OLD Holmes lost to a LHW as if that means anything. It doesn't change the reality that an OLD Rocky with back problems isn't beating the PRIME Holmes that Ali fought.

 

There is zero evidence the rest of the division couldn't become that size. Louis, Jefferies, Johnson, etc all fought multiple men their own size. I never said people were going out of their way to find the next Carnera, I said your claim that elite big guys were rare back then is completely false. You only said that to give Rocky a pass for having zero experience against large 70's sized guys.

When the sample size is limited to an ancient gunshy Joe Louis, Valdez, and Baker, and Rocky only fought 1 of them, it's reasonable to say he might struggle with the big athletic opponents of Ali. Common sense really.

With or without ALS, Charles was still a natural light heavy with lots of mileage from a long career. He really had no business fighting at HW. He was an overachiever.

It's irrelevant to the topic. The topic is Rocky against Ali's opponents, and there were several who'd be 15-30 lbs heavier with advantages in speed, reach, and finesse.

What are you talking about? When did I claim Carnera's success proved that the next obvious phase would be to transition the division to the SHW's? The only reason I brought up Carnera, Willard, Firpo, Baer, etc was to debunk your idea that bigger heavies were very rare and that's why Rocky's era didn't have many and he didn't fight them.

 

Yeah, I will keep repeating that Holmes is the one who lost to LHW, because it is true.

 

You can, but it won't change the fact an old Rocky with back issues isn't beating a prime Holmes.

Let me know when you're ready to get back on topic.

 

He was still throwing a volume of punches that Holmes would not have been able to deal with, and the back issues may have been entirely made up. People close to him say that he retired early because he was tired of having half of his money taken by his crooked handlers, and the back issues were just an excuse. He felt well enough to think about a comeback when Johanson won the title.

 

number one contender Joe Louis?

This is utter nonsense. I shouldn’t need to educate you on this again. Gene Tunney had no business. Schmeling had no business. Holyfield had no business. Moorer had no business. Braddock had no business. Patterson had no Business. Ellis had no business. Walcott had no business. I never hear anyone say this. Only ever Charles and he was no different to any of them.

And we know why that was. Advances made it possible later on….. Let’s make a comparison when advances were possible against a guy who lived before it was possible.

it didn’t work though did it? The average elite HW was in the 190s until the Ali era. And this was clearly because until the Ali era it wasn’t possible for the overall average to jump twenty pounds all of a sudden. So bringing up a few random giants that were able to make the grade doesn’t change the fact that there was a hundred year wait until the elite of the division as a whole got bigger. Nobody was looking for the next Carnera. There was a reason for this.

 

We've been over this, Holmes dealt with high volume boxers such as Norton, Spinx, and Weaver. Prime Rocky, sure he might have trouble with the intense pace, but a 35+ Rocky isn't going to be fighting at his usual volume. I think prime Holmes beats prime Rocky anyways.

There is zero reason for me to believe the back issues are made up when other short swarming boxers sometimes had back issues from all the intense training and bobbing/weaving. It would be very difficult to maintain that sort of style well into your late 30's. No one's ever done it and I certainly can't give Rocky the benefit of the doubt when he retired at 32 and faced approximately ZERO athletic big men like Holmes.

 

Louis was fat, he wasn't a true 210+ guy. And he was gunshy mostly just spamming jabs. That is not going to prepare him for big guys like Norton, Mathis, Holmes, Bugner, etc.

Charles started his career as a damn welterweight in the amateurs. Me saying he has no business at HW and calling him an overachiever is a compliment. Nothing you type will change the fact Charles has a very long, rugged career and was shopworn by the time he fought Rocky.

There were zero advances in the 70's making them any bigger because there were guys in the 60's, 40's, and even 30's as big as the 70's guys. They weren't on roids. The 50's just didn't have a lot of them and Rocky's management avoided or ignored the few that were available. It was a weak era, probably a diet issue too.

You keep saying it wasn't possible to have boxers the size of the 70's boxers in Rocky's era but that is a TOTAL LIE.

Carnera and Willard became champions. So...I guess it did work out? I mean, what more did you want them to do, become kickboxing champions as well?

Average elite HW was 190 until the 70's? Are you sure about that? The numbers disagree with you. Dempsey, Rocky, Tunney, and Patterson are probably the only champions to consistently weigh in the 190 range, and Rocky was considered small and written off for his size even in HIS era. You can go all the way back to Sullivan and multiple HW champions are over 200. Several contenders are too, and I don't just mean giants.

 

What do you mean by front footed?

 

Rocky is literally pushing him out of the ring.

 

Putting a lot of your body weight on the front foot and fighting aggressively stepping forward with the front foot.

 

26-0 Marciano vs 26-0 Frazier would be better and more exciting than the thrilla

 

The better question is does he stay alive.

 

he had more of a style than Bonavena and higher ring IQ the way he would constantly stalk and press and gauge rhythm, Bonavena was tough as nails but more just basics and an inside brawler but stuck to those basics

 

He could go undefeated with Ali's 60s opponents, with the arguable exception of Liston but those weren't the best versions of Liston.