Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Fergy, Sep 15, 2023.
We need Rocket Man to nuke the whole question!
And again, those who knew him said otherwise.
Ali and Louis.
He so consistently bashes Marciano that I sometimes wonder if he is not trolling.
Of course they did. Of course those manlets Peter Marciano and Lou Duva did. I'm shocked?
Literally, no one overrates him. Figuratively, I don't know.
More skilled and better than what some of his critics who completely write him off claim, far less mythological than some of his hardcore supporters believe.
He wasn't just a mindless slugger who relied on nothing but offense and toughness to win, nor was his entire career "pure luck" against completely horrible opponents/good matchmaking. The opposite extreme suggests he was a genius, well rounded fighter with great defense and often completely ignore or downplay the shortcomings of some of his opponents. Both extremes are cringe worthy and the main reason so many Rocky threads can reach 10+ pages because few people can be objective or give an inch in any view.
In my view, it is both true that he had great matchmaking in a relatively weak era and that he beat some good fighters doing everything a champion is supposed to do: win. It is both true that he could be crude and sloppy, but that he also had moments where he could be clever and resourceful making the opponent fight at his preferred pace or set them up for something big. It is both true that some of his better opponents were older and shopworn but that Rocky beat virtually every noteworthy ranked contender of his era in a convincing fashion.
As far as his abilities, definitely an iron chin, good power, great stamina, great inside ability, etc. No I don't think he could shatter skulls or that he was a top 5 hardest hitter ever at 188 lbs. No I don't think that he was borderline invincible and could walk through the punches of super heavyweights. No I don't think he would "find a way to win" no matter who the opponent. He would obviously lose to some very bad matchup, especially men weighing 220+ that he never even encountered. At the same time, I don't think all the positive qualities we can see on film were that of a fraudulent, manufactured fighter who feasted on bums, he was the real deal and a hell of a champion.
For resume, he's in my top 10 primarily for his undefeated record and clearing out his division convincingly. H2H, I rate him very high for light heavy to cruiser sized guys, but true heavyweights I'm usually not sold on him depending on the style clash. He wasn't particularly talented and even his trainer said he could be clumsy, but that's what made him great: one of the best overachievers in sports. He had no business being that good with his small body and awkward ability.
I have him about number 12 or 13 all time.
I don't think Shkor,Reynolds, or Muscato were ever ranked so for me they were not contenders.Savold was washed up ,Mathews was a hype job,Lastarza for me did not deserve a title shot,nor Cockell,that leaves an excellent win over Layne and wins over past prime Walcott,Louis,and Charles.
Marciano stated in an interview that he blacked out when Moore dropped him,when he got up at the count of I think 4 ,he started towards the ropes expecting a standing count ,which was waived for title fights
in my book that is not a flash KD, Foreman v Young was what I would call a flash KD.
Lewis would decapitate Marciano imo,and that is no reflection on Rocky.
Marciano came along at the right time.
With the exception of Valdes he beat what was around.
He moves around, like most in my greatest heavyweight s.
At the moment he's there and about at 10,the unbeaten record does keep him quite high in my book.
I can't say about all of them without looking but Shkor was ranked after he beat Muriello.
I agree with you, for the most part. I rate him at #6 or #7 for about the same reasons as you. I am guessing a little here, but I would imagine you may not have Jack Dempsey as high as I do. On my list, the run Dempsey had getting to his shot at Willard, and even some of his title reign, pushes Jack higher than most probably have him here. I have him ahead of Rocky Marciano.
Well put. He’s definitely top 5-10 in terms of career “greatness,” but there are dozens of heavyweights I’d pick to beat him head to head.
His first fights with Walcott and Charles are some of the best heavyweight fights of all time, really his second fight with Charles too, people will often rate a fighter based on their dominance of an opponent rather than expressing their style in a much closer match, lots of highly ranked heavyweights never actually fought on that level, they never put a beating on their opponent while also receiving such a beating
One thing I take issue with (not necessarily with you, but just generally speaking) is that Rocky was sloppy. He was not sloppy when it counted. Sure he missed some punches, but much of his sloppiness came when he had his opponents on their heels. Also, when he missed a punch he made it purposeful by ducking and weaving and then shifting his weight and coming up from the other side with a follow-up punch. He was always in motion to make himself a moving target. In this way, he made missing a punch and then following it up almost an art in itself.