Rocky Marciano

Yes, a GOOD Big Man "should" beat a Good smaller Man. Of course there are things that can change the odds...like getting punched in the face and ribs but overall, they should according to the old boxing betting rule book.

Bringing up the Big HWs back then, like Jess Willard, Buddy Baer {6'6, 235+}, Abe Simon, Primo Carnera, etc. and trying to compare them to someone as athletic and skilled as Lennox Lewis, Bowe, and some others...is a stretch.

Those lumbering Giants back then are going to get their ass kicked. That's why Dempsey's Manager preferred them. But move ahead to the modern era, where the Big Men are Athletic and Skilled...it's a different game.



And again, 12 round, 15 round...it depends on the pace of the fight. Tell a Man he has a shorter fight, he may up the pace.

There were fights way back with even more rounds and it was like watching paint dry.

 

not 100% sure, but it sounds about right, they cut his water and protine intake before a fight.

 

I'm not going to bother checking the record, but I reckon most, probably all, of those names you mention above at least had winning records.

Marciano fought one guy the year before he became champ who stepped into the ring that night with three wins and thirteen losses on his record!

 

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Today Gerorge Foreman always would be 230 plus ..because thats what the elite fighters weigh today. Why when Foreman always was as natuaraly big as most of the curent crop of heavyweights should he come in any lighter when Foreman’s record counted on him being so much heavier than so many of his actual opponents anyway? Remember all those cruiseweights Old george liked to fight in his comeback? Qawi, Cooper, Martin, JB Williamson etc??
For you to say george ALWAYS should have been 230 is not correct. Think of how much more encumbered he would have been in the early 1970s? George would have punched himself out 3 rounds earlier against Ali,, and he might have been that much slower getting off the floor against Ron Lyle.

 

Is that unusual among champions?

the point is once marciano hit the elite level he did not lose and he kept fighting within that class. It is quite a lot of consistant wins at the highest level. Four years at the top and cleaning out the house is good going.

Marciano certainly did not defend the title against any rubish. who the hell was that last guy Klitchko fought?

 

So Foreman at 6’3’’ and 217 determines what you regard as a SuperHeavyWeight? wasn’t Larry Holmes, Muhammad Ali, Ken Norton and even Max baer in this bracket?
This would also exclude Holyfeild, Frazier and Tyson as SHW’s since they are too short.
I find it easier to clasify super heavyweights as a man unable to ever weigh any less than 225 pounds as a pro. A real natural Giant whopper like Primo carnera, Vitali Klitchko. I cannot include a big framed guy who came in any less just to suit a game plan.

Superheavyweight is a myth. It is not a new species of ATG heavyweights. it is a game plan used by good sized fighters to suit the era in which they live.

 

i'm not sure how clearer I can make it. anyone as big, or bigger than george foreman is what I call a super heavyweight.

 

Since Ali didn't physically force Foreman to fight at a high pace like some opponents can do which can force your stamina to deplete faster...we'll talk about that fight as to why it was Foreman's own strategic fault for wearing out and had nothing to do with his weight.

He punched himself out against Ali for many reasons and it was not because of weight. (1) He fought with anger instead of being relaxed. You need to control your emotions. You need to control your heart-rate. You can have Rocky Marciano stamina in training, but if you don't have Rocky Marciano calmness when fighting in the actual fight, in front of a crowd, your stamina is ****. You will burn yourself out quickly because your nerves and anxiousness will increase your heart-rate and your body will become exhausted.

(2) Power Punching. You don't have to throw hard with every single punch. You mix up the power. You can do quite a lot of damage throwing at 65% over the course of a fight than with throwing with 100% power non-stop for half a fight. If you are throwing with full force and you can't get them out of there by the time you slow down or burn yourself out, you better hope that your early work has made them Mentally and Physically damaged to force them to coast as well.
You need to pick your shots better and make them count.
Larry Holmes talked about this as to why Tyson had some issues in the later rounds. He could get to tight loading up on shots and that wears you out. Tyson even had to learn this. As he matured he grew confident and he was more relaxed which enabled him to last the distance. Of course it didn't help being the smaller Man and having to exert more energy but hopefully you get my point. Example of two fights: Tillis and Green.

(3) Foreman didn't fight behind the Jab when he fought Ali. The Jab can control the pace of the fight. This is what Lennox Lewis did. This is what Wlad does. A Jab can be vital in controlling the pace of the fight. Especially when you are a Tall/Heavy. You can keep the opponent at a distance. Keep him cautious. All this allows you to take less punches as well which helps keep your stamina stable.
Big Men can also tie fighters up on the inside and wear down fighters by imposing their size on the smaller man.

 

well I dont. a super heavyweight is a guy who can not weigh any less than 225lb.

 

Was Foreman 6'3 or 6'4?

I've seen more people list him as 6'4.


And a "natural" weight would be whatever he is on a "normal" athlete's diet when training. No strict diet or anything like that.


How many of the Big Men of Yesterday are as athletic as today's athletes?
{From the 80's on}
And Skill.

 

You diet a guy down enough and he can make that weight but with possible ill effects.

You need to feed the body to operate at 100%. All this dieting down because someone thinks coming in "lighter" is better can actually do the opposite on performance because the muscles are depleted and weak from a lack of nutrition. That and your body's endocrine system can be thrown off with malnourishment and over-training.

 

Foreman punched himself out because he set too high a pace against a guy he could not make an impression on. If Foreman was 23 pounds heavier he would be 23 pounds slower and lucky to keep up the slugging for more than a minuet a round without blowing like an old donkey. george would have exposed himself to a lot more openings much more earlier as he would have been defenceless during the breathers he would need to take. Ali would have stopped a 230 Foreman sooner. It might have resembled clay vs. Williams.
You have avoided the point about George Foreman being so very fond of having the weight advantage and chosing to fight so many cruiserweights. If super heavyweight is a new weight class then why is so much of the credibility of its heroes based on outweighing inferior opposition? Surly the true worth of a fighter is being able to beat fighters of their own size and ability?

This is all true, and confirms my believe that the extra weight is a game plan and not a new division. I don’t see how a 230 pound young George Foreman EVER used these tactics. If you are trying to imply the extra weight on a young 217 George Foreman would allow him to discover a new game plan and style to beat Ali (who outreached him anyway) then it amounts to an excuse based on the hindsight of another era in the future where all the fighters share the same burden of artificial weight slowing them down enough to make it all possible.

 

No. If there is a giant out there who cannot weigh less than 225 as a "natural" weight found on a "normal" athlete's diet when training with no strict diet or anything like that then he IS a natural super heavyweight.

Lennox Lewis, bowe, Vladimir and George Foreman are not natural superheavyweights because they all won fights lighter than 225lb. Nothing to do with malnourishment or over training. They trained to win fights. They all won fights lighter than 225lb but CHOSE to weigh more later on.
　
　
Heavyweights should never diet but they would be better without this artificial weight they insist on having. . To suit a particular game plan against a smaller opponent. If Heavyweights went back to doing all the same gym circuits and miles on the road as the middleweights did they would be leaner fighting machines with zero artificial weight. They would be ready and better prepared to take on heavyweights of all sizes like they used to be able to.

 

Then it's a pointless argument of semantics.

What i'm saying is I wouldn't expect Rocky to compete with George, Lennox, Wlad nor Riddick.

 

If you take all the artificial weight off of those four the weight disadvantage comes down quite a lot. Each would be facing a fighter better than they had ever beaten. Rocky too.