Rocky Marciano

Did anyone here live through the 70's? It was well known that George did not have long term stamina in the ring. Look at his fight with Peralta, Ali and Young. Same thing happened in all three bouts.

 

Foreman had stamina issues...he was booed by the crowds many a time in his career during fights where he was supposed to steamroll his opponent...and didn't...and had to settle for a decision...

 

Let's throw everything out and get to a point: If you can have an advantage by being bigger, why not use it to your advantage?

Nobody is stopping anyone from gaining more weight. If it hinders you, then don't do it.


If Lennox Lewis wants to put on pounds to use it to his advantage, so be it.

 

It could be. Specifically for those that need an advantage.

We have weight divisions for this reason. Size can make a difference. A Great Fighter at 120 can be beaten by a decent fighter at 160.



Your example I think....George Foreman. His boxing skills lacked so he wanted the size advantage.

But who cares. You do what you have to do in order to win as long as it is within the rules. In the end, it's your job to fight everyone.

Everybody isn't made up the same. Some are stronger than others. Some are quicker than others. Some are more powerful than others. Some may even be more capable of building up their endurance than others. These are things you work on to improve, but overall, you are born with these attributes.
"BOXING SKILLS" is about work work work. But that fighter that may be more skilled boxing wise, may get beat by someone that is Stronger and more Powerful.


In the end, it's about who is left standing.

People can talk all they want about P4P the best but in the end, it's all about who is really #1 OVERALL. That is the HW Champ.

 

This is kind of my point about SHW being a game plan rather than a new natural species of heavyweight! What you are saying is “If you can beat somebody by MAKING yourself bigger then do it”. The emphasis is on “making” because it is an ACTUAL fact that all but one of the best big men have won fights weighing less than 225. Proving making themselves bigger is a chosen game plan.
All along I hear people on ESB trying to stump anyone trying to make a case for an all timer who was less than 225 by saying he would be out of his depth against a skilled 225 plus man but if the skilled 225 plus man is for all the world a much smaller man masquerading as a bigger man what does it mean? I tell you what it means it means, it means a 225lb plus natural heavyweight is a nonsense.
What if the artificially bigger man has never paid his dues in a 15 round fight fast paced fight? Isn’t he also being asked to fight out of his depth?
Boxing is about being able to beat people of comparable size and ability. If there is a weight class out there that depends on beating those of less ability with an artificial size advantage it is proof that the success of the champion owes more to beating those of less ability than of the size advantage itself doesn’t it?

 

If you boil them down they'd weigh less. Well done for such an astute observation.

I still wouldn't expect Rocky to compete with them.

 

Is not boiling them down it is using a lower weight they already won fights at as a starting point then seeing how they get on with someone of great ability.

 

Even better is letting them fight at their comfortable weigh and seeing how they get on with greats who are at two stone plus disadvantage.

 

Not necessarily. We've seen time and time again in the lower weight divisions have fighters that diet down to a division they shouldn't really be in but they do it to get that advantage. But they still win despite not feeding their body the required athletic nutritional needs. And as they move up, some have actually felt better because they are now feeding their body accordingly. Everything goes up: Strength, Speed, Power, and Energy.

The same can happen with these Big Guys. They can listen to their trainers on what to eat but aren't getting the right advice. They aren't feeding their bodies the required nutrition. Even if they weren't athletes they could just be eating to get by. But as athletes, you have to eat what is required to fuel your body accordingly based on the sport/activity. Just eat healthy and train.




15 round fights weren't always fast paced. It depends on the fighters and even then....how many punches were they throwing?

And against a Bigger Man with the skills of a Lennox Lewis, how many could they throw against him?
First, they would have to get past his Jab. A Jab that was able to control the pace of the fight. If you get by that, you can be clinched up which not only slows down the pace of the fight, but it can also take away your own stamina because Lewis is a Big Strong MFer.
And of course taking a big shot from him can wear you out. Trying to move in on him can wear you out.



In the end it doesn't matter. It's about who is the left Standing.

There are more talented fighters than Rocky Marciano below his weight yet because of the size of Marciano, he would win. How unfair is that given his skill level isn't on the level of Sugar Ray Robinson?

Did you ever watch Raging Bull?
Remember that seen when Jake talks to his brother about not being able to be the best because he can't fight Joe Louis ?
And he feels he is better than Louis. But Louis is a HW.

On that note, Jake is wrong. Louis was better P4P anyway.




You train for a 15 round fight. If they can come in at 220+ because they feel it is better for them and they are healthy...so be it. Some of these guys do bulk up. But it doesn't necessarily mean that all of the weight needs to come off to compete at 15.
And again, there are many ways to control the pace. It's not like everyone was going out there blasting away for all 15 rounds. People paced themselves back then too.

 

Agree.

Agree

 

I dont think george Foreman was ever sharper or better at 217 that he was against Joe Frazier.
I dont think larry Holmes fought better than he did as low as 207 against ken Norton.

I think Ali Looked sharp and dangerous at 206 against Sonny Liston in the rematch.

All Three examples of great fighters winning key fights against heavier opponents. Proving they did not need any more weight in order to be better than they were here.

 

If they felt healthy there, then that's cool for them.

Fighters will do what they have to do to make sure they are at their best (if given the right advice). You can change with times. Ray Lewis did this in the NFL.


What's your overall point? Are we discussing Marciano since it's his thread?

 

Haha, got kind of lost in all the excitemant i think. :good

My over all point is there are great short and tall heavyweights (of which marciano is one of them) and then there are great short and tall fighters who chose to become superheavyweights because it is the trend.

I dont think the SHW division exists on its own. I dont think the SHW ideal is an improvement. and I dont think SHW's automaticaly beat great smaller sized heavyweights just because they are encumbered with artificial weight since so much of their existance depends on facing other encumbered artificial SHW's of less ability.

 

bowe in holy 1 would beat just about any "heavyweight" and i use the term loosly south of the 200lb border.

 

there are great fighters throughout boxing. some weigh more than others. I'm not sure why you have so much difficulty with this concept.