Rocky Marciano's Power

And almost everybody else fought so much more and so much more often than Marciano that it's criminal to overlook.

Marciano's entire career consisted of an eight year body of work.

We saw Rocky at his best... and... that's it. There's nothing beyond his peak. He got out of the game and kept out. When he did attempt a comeback he fought behind closed doors and was more or less embarassed. I'd love to of seen him of fully come back, how that'd drastically affect the discussion we're having right now.

 

"Really, great HW, an amazing one even. But not the messiah of the heavyweight division that some paint him to be."

I never used a term such as messiah. I understood you as implying that Marciano's punching power did not stand up to scrutiny and I offered a small rebuttal, factual I believe.
I think this is all factual:

1. Marciano is the only heavyweight champion of his century to have a perfect record.

2. Marciano knocked out the longest reigning heavyweight and light-heavyweight champions of his century.

3. Marciano has the best knockout percentage (calculated in total fights) of any heavyweight champion of his century.

4. Marciano has the highest knockout percentages against Hall-of-Famers, champions, fighters rated when he fought them, and ever rated fighters.

Now you have counter-arguments, some fair, and some somewhat unfair, such as Walcott being years past his best--who knows? He was coming off his biggest career wins. Marciano had a short career. Okay. But longevity is only one measure of greatness. In American gridiron football, Jim Brown did not have a particularly long career. Nor did Joe DiMaggio in baseball. No one doubts their greatness. Marciano retired early--he won fights against top opposition at 32. Sullivan, Jeffries, Dempsey, Tunney, and Frazier did not do better or sometimes even as well.

Bottom line--If his opponents were not oldish, and if he had a longer career, it would probably be very hard not to judge him the best fighter of his century. As it is, he was certainly exceptional.

 

And Dempsey's shots, "repeated" or not damaged the 250lb Willard just as badly as any fighter ever in a few short minutes. The injuries Willard had after Dempsey was through with him there is the stuff of legend.

It's not like Marciano's never been in a war of attrition where he's needed an ungodly amount of shots to put someone away.

His beating of Cockell had more "dirty power" shots than a Foreman fight. He just kept hitting him and hitting him and hitting him.

 

He was definitely exceptional, in a myriad of ways.

Walcott WAS years past his best. Physically he was an old, old man. What he did have going for him was years of accumlated knowledge which he applied brilliantly. That doens't change the aspect of the issue that I'm debating.

As for Tunney?

Tunney's career wasn't exceptionally long either. He boxed for 13 years. But in those 13 years he fought 86 times, and lost only once. He avenged that loss more than once.

I honestly don't see the worshipping of the all mighty 49. Tunney went 81-1 his career and his fights with Greb alone contain more talent than anything Marciano ever ran into, considering said fighters aged.

 

I honestly can't even understand the Tunney/Marciano comparison.

Marciano got to Ezzard Charles at the end of his career and eeked out a win one time, and stopped him the other.

Gene fought Dempsey twice at the end of both of their careers and beat him twice.

Is there really any doubt as to who's greater at heavyweight, Dempsey or Ezzard?

 

Well, you have to fight the man who is champion. Marciano doesn't have much choice and Walcott was coming off his biggest wins. Compare to Bernard Hopkins today.

As for Tunney, I consider him the best fighter I have seen on film from the twenties, but I don't really see that having 86 total fights proves he is better than a man who had 49. Does having 49 fights make Marciano unquestionably better than Sugar Ray Leonard or Jim Jeffries or Lennox Lewis? I think the number of tough fights matters more. Tunney was great but most of his career was at middleweight and light heavy and most of his key opponents were not only old, a criticism also applying to Marciano, but also often smaller, and he seems to have struggled a bit more than Marciano. His series with Greb was very close, with Tunney perhaps having a slight edge, but with who was really the better man being hidden behind the no decision rule. Tunney's fight with Loughran was close enough to be unclear. The winner depends on which paper one reads.
Bottom line--Tunney's only top wins at heavyweight were over the rusty Dempsey, and a better Dempsey in a rematch, a win somewhat clouded by the long count. Gibbons was a lightheavy. Risko, Heeney, and Weinert ordinary heavies. Greb a large middle. Loughran a green middle. None but Dempsey was a top puncher. Marciano certainly fought tougher heavyweight competition.

 

Well he was clever then,why come back if your not up to it,he finished on a high and its so sad he died young,he should have had a long and rich life

 

It's got plenty to do with a myriad of things.

Hence why the very foundation of boxing is based on a variety of different weight classes, and why the champion after Marciano in Patterson was absolutely destroyed in a matter of minutes by a bigger, stronger man.

 

In head to head terms, I tend to judge Marciano as a 190 lb'er rather than as a heavyweight. In terms of legacy, I judge him as a heavy.

Regardless, I would not pick any fighter over him with a 190lb limit. I would put the mortgage on it. Pound for Pound, a devastatingly hard hitter with great stamina, a very good chin, under-rated defense and believed he would win each and every time out.

And just to put my opinion in perspective, I used to think Marciano was vastly over-rated until I really studied film of him and the film and records of his opponents. This is never an easy game to decipher. There are things Marciano did so effectively they can not be taught in a primer or a gym. And these things- in the end- always covered his deficiencies.

 

I agree with this completely.

I don't agree with the acessments of most regarding him vs. a 250lb prime Lennox Lewis.

 

Marciano is a great little guy with exceptional power for his size. It would have benefitted him if he had fought better fighters when he was champ, but he was champ in a week era. By the time, Patterson or johansson were legit threats, he was already retired. The fact that he had so much trouble with good boxers, even though they were past their primes, leads to serious questions about his legacy as an ATG. He is an ATG, but he would have a serious problem with the upper echelon fighters.

 

Dosnt everybody have trouble with good boxers?