Rocky Marciano's so called punching power

You seem to be under the impression that I thought walcott was a bad fighter or had a horrible style.

I don't.

He won a championship belt despite being severely shopworn and had a great record against the best fighters of his era.

I am simply challenging your assertion that you can describe him as a defensive wizard.

I am not concerned with "why" they got hit, only that they got hit, dropped, and had half a dozen knockout losses. I understand that they had very long careers and fought very often so they were bound to get nailed at some point but this is less forgivable when you are getting badly hurt by guys who aren't known for being particularly elite fighters in terms of skill or power.

You insisted that they were defensive specialists and the cold hard numerical facts show that they were stopped quite often. On top of that, there are old schools defensive fighters such as Locche or Young who didn't get brutalized nearly as often as they did either.

Now you're being facetious again on purpose.

First of Ali was not a defensive wizard or specialist. He was an outside fighter who was perfectly willing to throw flashy combos at mid range and entertain the crowd going to war. But his defense was actually quite bad and relied more on athleticism and raw speed to avoid punches rather than actually blocking/parrying/etc. Frazier exposed this and showed that if you manage to close the gap Ali's only options are to simply cover up with a guard with many gaps or clinch.

Ali's primary objective was to make you look silly and counter or to simply jab and float around. If he hurt you, he's become very aggressive and throw flurries and if he couldn't hurt you he'd just rinse and repeat. When these options were shut down Ali looked very mediocre and heavily struggled with guys who had good fundamentals and skill. Even a basic "defensive specialist" would NEVER struggle when they have to rely on their fundamentals and skill. It's a contradiction.

As for Ali's KO% yes it's remarkable that he had so many stoppages over ranked competition despite fighting on the back foot but we just established he was no defensive wizard and got nailed quite a bit once his speed and athleticism slowed down.

Even if we play devil's advocate and label him a defensive fighter Ali had underrated power but he wasn't exactly leaving guys drooling on the canvas being counted out, many of his opponents were stopped on their feet due to too many unanswered shots or cuts/swelling (even some of his low ranked opponents didn't get dropped). Moore was destroying guys and was a true knockout artist.

Obviously I would take a defensive approach early.

Don't know why you're asking that when Moore and Walcott were (on paper) superior fighters to Marciano with more 15 round experience.

 

I'm not quite sure how a guy who was "overly cautious" could have such a staggering number of knockouts.

 

1. The comment had nothing to do with Choklab, it was directed at RockyJim, and rightfully so.

2. Choklab does receive some criticism that gets rather personal but let's not pretend it's unjustified and out of left field. He is a liar, intellectually dishonest, deceptive, intentionally misleading, and biased beyond belief especially when it comes to fighters he despises like Foreman, Liston, and especially Cleveland Williams (whom must've bumped off Choklab's family, friends, and everyone he's ever loved to deserve the vital contempt Choklab has for him) or fighters he adores such as Rocky Marciano and endlessly worships him and defends him to such an extent, I wouldn't be surprised if Choklab was Marciano himself from beyond!

 

****, I just saw this. You beat me to it!

 

I consider myself normal, and that anyone who can't bring themselves to say I WAS WRONG is lacking in humility and self -awareness.
The evidence doesn't ,"seem to show," it categorically and unarguably does show!
Willard has never been classed as one of the heaviest punchers in the heavyweight division, to suggest he was is the height of absurdity.It took him26 rds to wear down an out of shape, 37 years old Johnson,which other heavy of real ability did he ever ko?
Pretty pathetic response from you I expected better.Still it saves me looking for the Lastarza interview.
Your credibility with me just got up and walked out the door.

 

Marciano: 11 of his 43 KOs were in the first round. 88% is the highest knockout percentage in heavyweight champion history. He knocked out 4 Hall of Fame fighters. Has scored multiple one punch knockouts and knockdowns on camera in various stages of fights.

This forum: But did he really have punching power?

 

It's a given that he had punching power ,I think the question is how much?
1. HOF was 37 having his last fight.
1Was 37 & 38 having his last 2 fights.
1 Was 38/40 depending on whether you believed him or his Mother.
1.Was 33 and had significant mileage on his clock. Eleven 1 st rd kos? Lets look at them.
Bilazarian was a middleweight who had been stopped in his last 2 fights he was 3-5-0.
Edwards was 1-1- 0
Ross was a middleweight blown up to175lbs.
Cardone was having his first fight.
Weekes was having his first fight.
Wilson was stopped on a cut eye inside the first minute.
Jackson was 4- 2-0 having his last fight which brought him to 4 wins 3 losses.
Donato was 7-10-0.
Connolly 8-5-0.
Walcott froze up in the dressing room according to his trainer,he was beaten before he entered the ring.

 

That’s the thing. Chok seems to stick to the argument, while you and several others resort to constant ad hominem personal attacks. And then act like he is some perpetrator.

Looneyville I tell ya

If you don’t agree with his logic or his arguments, learn how to deal with that without making him into the devil. It’s not like his conclusions become official RING Magazine publications that impact how the history of the sport is written. He’s just a dude on a forum with a different opinion. I’ve seen people do far far worse than him, who receive far less insults. But hey, he’s an easy target because he rarely responds back with vehement insults. Man up, eat some bread, let the man have his views, and stick to the argument if you really care to exchange views with him.

Now I’m gonna go make some tea. You guys want some?

 

I agree and feel he’s unjustly villified as some gigantic fabricator when he’s wrong by an inch or half inch on height or something lol

 

You obviously don't follow our discussions with Choklab as that is one of his main criticisms. When backed into a corner by facts, he twists your argument then attacks said argument, creating a straw-man. One of his most deceptive behaviors.

If someone's being intentionally misleading, dishonest, unfair, biased, and deceptive you can bet your ass I will call out that behavior. Don't tell me otherwise.

It has absolutely nothing to do with different opinions. Their are multiple posters here who's opinions differ greatly mine, and I get along with them just fine.

lol I love how you're twisting the narrative to make it out as if we're just bullying the guy because he has a different opinion than ours. Some of our problems with him are; he manufactures strawmen when he's frustrated and on the losing end of an argument, is not impartial (particularly when it comes to the aforementioned names I listed in my previous post) resorts to flat out lies, and on the rare occasions when he's not actually lying; he posts things that whilst, not completely untrue, portray a misleading and deceptive narrative while leaving out crucial info. When called out on this behavior, he acts like the victim and all of this is unwarranted.

And it's not just me saying this. Multiple Posters besides myself: McGrain, JohnThomas1, SolomonDeedes, Glass City Cobra, Mcvey, George Crowcroft, GOAT Primo Carnera, SuzieQ49, Seamus, MrKoolKevin, Undefeated Lachbuster, Bokaj, Jason Thomas, BlackCloud, Charlietf (Combatesdeboxeo), Sting Like A Bean, Contro, among others have ALL voiced similar complaints at one point or another. This idea that all of the above posters are wrong, and somehow you are right is laughable. So both of you can **** right off with your little theory that we got together and concocted the biggest conspiracy since JFK, against Choklab. Hell, a lot of us don't even particularly like each other and have our own separate rivalries, yet STILL independently reached the same conclusion about Choklab. What does that tell you? If that doesn't speak volumes to you, I simply don't know what else to say.

 

I take that as a no on the tea?

 

Honestly dude, almost every single genuine debate I’ve had here ends up with straw man arguments, and all types of argumentative fallacies. Which is why I rarely get into serious debates anymore.

I’ve had my opinions on boxing challenged with my experience in actual boxing.
Then I did actual boxing, and it became about who my coach was and what gym I went to.
And then it became about the level of experience I had. On and on, and it never stopped.

Very few people here are open to changing their minds, and it’s really nice to see when people actually do in the face of a good argument. But mostly people will employ every angle possible to maintain that they are right. I think we’re all guilty of this to some degree.

I’ve been on this forum for a long time. And I definitely haven’t seen Choklab act egregiously relative to what most posters here do. Yet the personal attacks on him just never stop. So if him using a straw man is enough for you make him the devil, then everyone is the devil, and we all descend into chaos.

Which is why I personally think we should all just have some tea.

 

I got Matcha and Earl Grey