Rocky Next Morning After The Louis Fight

yes, Lennox Lewis was only about 18 months younger than Joe Louis was when he was knocked spark out by Hasim Rahman.

Larry Holmes was about the same age as Joe Louis losing to Micheal Spinks the second time.

Even that carnation of Louis was still a strong contender. And still beating good fighters.

I don’t think many people appreciate how good Cesar Brion was on film. He gave Charles all he could handle. And Bivins was still good as well. Louis never could of got past them if he was as bad as they say.

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

But does anyone claim the Joe Louis of 1951 was the pre-war Joe Louis?

It is like Robinson. Was he the same in the late fifties during his comeback as he had been before? Probably not, but he wasn't an easy mark either, and other than the Jones fight beaten only by proven champions.

 

Just think what Marcianos face would have looked like facing a prime Louis, i think Freddie Brown Marcianos cuts man, would have had a whole load of work to do stemming the claret and minimizing the sweling.

 

A very good point. Nobody wrote off Robinson even after the loss to Jones. If not the same, at worst, Robinson always gave good fighters a good fight.

Joe Louis at 50% is still a capable contender. I think when he fought Marciano Louis had declined to Ray Mercer, Trevor Berbick level. And even those two could not be trusted to do as well with Joe Louis’s schedule from November 1950-October1951 where he fought 9 times in 11 months.

 

I don't think that is an accurate analogy. Robinson was still capable of championship performances and was still good enough to draw crowds and decent purses. Meanwhile, the crowds were abandoning Louis because of declining performance. He desperately needed the money but knew he was at the end of the line.

 

Joe Certainly made up for it when he came back. As it turned out, even beyond his “retiring as undefeated champion” after the Walcott fight Louis was still actively the best Heavyweight in the world until 1950.

Officially He ran out of challengers and “retired” after knocking out Walcott. But that is not true at all. Louis fought 80 unlicensed fights between Walcott and Charles title fights. Not Exhibitions. Unlicensed. Fights where guys were knocked out. rated contenders were among his victims.

Far from being inactive from that time, the “one official fight” from 1948-1950 joe fought another 19 times in 1948 (including bouts against Arturo Godoy, Billy Conn and Jimmy Bivins that were certainly competitive), 36 times in 1949 ( including bouts with Curtis Shepherd, Elmer Ray, olimio Agramante, bill Gilliam, Nino Valdes, Rex Layne, Tommy Flynn, Johnny Shkor and Roscoe Tolles) and 24 times in 1950 (including bouts with Pat Valentino, Clarence Henry, Nino Valdes, Henry Hall) so that count becomes 1+79 fights for the period dosnt it?

You can dismiss them as mere exhibitions but guys were knocked out by Joe Louis here. Some were 10 rounders with News paper decisions. Some Real fights, often with no head guards but no official decision.

I often think Louis relinquished his title in order to promote fights and stay busy fighting “exhibitions” until a new champion was found.

 

Passing of the torch in boxing....it happened then...and it happens now...

 

"the crowds were abandoning Louis because of declining performance."

Well, here are the crowds for the last four Louis fights and and Robinson's four fights in 1957 and 1958.

Robinson
1st Fullmer-----18,934
2nd Fullmer----14,757
1st Basilio------38,072
2nd Basilio-----17,976

Louis
Lee Savold-----18,170
Cesar Brion----app, 12,000
Jimmy Bivins---18,215
Rocky Marciano-17,241

Drawing my conclusion. Louis wasn't meeting anyone who was the draw (at the time) Basilio was, but a lot of folks were showing up.

How do these crowds compare to prime Joe Louis championship crowds?

John Paycheck 1940-----10,609 (in NYC)
Al McCoy 1941-----------13,325
Harry Thomas 1938------10,743
Abe Simon 1942----------15,367 (in NYC)
Buddy Baer 1942---------16,689 (in NYC)

Of course there were the big outdoor fights in the championship years, and none here, but I think that nobody was coming out to see the old Louis is not really proven by these stats. McCoy might have been a sellout at the Boston Garden, but the other four at Madison Square Garden & the Chicago Stadium had empty seats.

What about how the two fighters were viewed? One way to judge is the betting odds. Box rec doesn't list the odds for the 2nd Olson fight nor the Basilio fights, but does have some others for Robinson during his comeback.

1955 Rocky Castellani-----Castellani 2-1
1955 Bobo Olson-----------Olson 3-1
1957 Gene Fullmer 1st-----Robinson 6-5
1957 Gene Fullmer 2nd----Fullmer 7-2

Louis in contrast was never an underdog in any fight.
1950 Ezzard Charles---------Louis 2-1
1951 Rocky Marciano--------Louis 6-5

I guess one could make the case Louis hadn't had enough recent fights going into the Charles fight for folks to know how much he had regressed, and Marciano was still somewhat unproven.

But it is eye-opening how big an underdog Robinson was to Castellani, Olson, and Fullmer.

 

Robinson's comeback was considered very successful, while Joe's was a failure, but how do they compare? Here is the two mens records from ages 34 to 37 (1948 to 1951 for Louis-1955 to 1958 for Robinson)

Louis
1948-----Jersey Joe Walcott (KO 11)
1950-----Ezzard Charles (L 15)
1950-----Cesar Brion (W 10)
1951-----Freddie Beshore (KO 4)
1951-----Omelio Agromante (W 10)
1951-----Andy Walker (KO 10)
1951-----Omelio Agromante (W 10)
1951-----Lee Savold (KO 6)
1951-----Cesar Brion (W 10)
1951-----Jimmy Bivins (W 10)
1951-----Rocky Marciano (KO by 8)

Robinson
1955-----Joe Rindone (KO 6)
1955-----Tiger Jones (L 10)
1955-----Johnny Lombardo (W 10)
1955-----Ted Olla (KO 3)
1955-----Garth Panter (W 10)
1955-----Rocky Castellani (W 10)
1955-----Bobo Olson (KO 2)
1956-----Bobo Olson (KO 4)
1956-----Bob Provizzi (W 10)
1957-----Gene Fullmer (L 15)
1957-----Gene Fullmer (KO 5)
1957-----Carmen Basilio (L 15)
1958-----Carmen Baslio (W 15)

So, some comparisons--
1----Robinson was 10-3 with 5 KO's
2----Louis was 9-2 with 4 KO's
3----Robinson fought four fighters rated when he fought them (Castellani, Olson, Fullmer, Basilio)
4----Louis fought four fighters rated when he fought them (Walcott, Charles, Savold, Marciano)
5----Robinson fought 5 fighters and 8 fights against fighters ever rated in The Ring's yearly rankings (Jones, Castellani, Olson, Fullmer, Basilio) with 5 wins and 3 losses.
6----Louis fought 8 fighters and 10 fights against fighters ever rated in The Ring's yearly rankings (Walcott, Charles, Brion, Beshore, Agromante, Savold, Bivins, Marciano) with 8 wins and 2 losses.
7----Olson and Walcott more or less cancel each other out. Louis at 34 KO'd Walcott. Robinson at 34 & 35 KO'd Olson.
8----Robinson had laid off except for one comeback fight before losing to Jones, but Louis had laid off before fighting Charles.

The real difference between the two? Robinson managed to split four fights with Fullmer and Basilio, while Louis lost his fights with Charles and Marciano,

BUT and a big BUT,

I think the Charles of 1950 and the Marciano of 1951 were a notch better than Fullmer and Basilio. That leaves us with a big and unanswerable question. Could Robinson have won in 1957 & 1958 against the equivalent of Charles & Marciano (let's say a prime Emile Griffith and the 1970 Carlos Monzon) and would Louis have gotten back to the title if he had only to meet the heavyweight equivalents of Fullmer & Basilio? Basilio is especially problematic. He was a good welter, but other than Robinson, whom exactly did he beat at middle? Were either Fullmer or Basilio (or Olson) the most dangerous middleweight punchers out there, or would that be Lausse or Boyd, or Webb, guys Robinson did not meet. Louis did meet the most dangerous heavyweight punchers between 1948 and 1951.

 

Not just anyone can wear a black eye from the great Joe Louis after beating him.

What I pick up from the picture is just how good Joe's jab must have been in its hey day more than the black eye the overall damage even an old Louis could cause.

 

The opponents he stopped quickly might not have looked too bad.