Rodrigo Valdez vs Marvin Hagler

JLP 6 · Dec 30, 2014

Vysotskyy said: ↑

I did not intend to sound condescending or anything i'm just surprised you would state something so emphatically when you're apparently quite unfamiliar with the divisions history along with some of it's ATG's.

Well i would say you're overrating the win over Hearns to say the least but here's a bit on the three you said you didn't know.

Teddy Yarosz

Billy Conn - Conn spent about 2 years tearing through the MW division beating a whose who before moving to LHW. Yarosz fought him 3 times going 1-2 with both losses being controversial and at least one of them probably should have been the other way. They were both from Pittsburgh and Conn was the favourite son which may have been a factor in the results. This alone far exceeds the Hearns win.

Archie Moore - Moore fought at MW in the 30's as part of Murderer's Row and contrary to most fans belief many of the top white boxers did fight them, Yarosz and Overlin being two examples.

Lloyd Marshall - Another Murderer's Row member, a natural LHW like Moore and Yarosz beat him when he was already past prime right near the end of his career.

Ken Overlin x2 - beat him twice and you'll see below why it's such a quality win

Solly Kreiger - MW Champion at one point in the 30's

Vince Dundee x 3 - MW Champion who Yarosz beat to win the title going 3-0 against him.

Babe Risko - MW Champion. Yarosz went 1-2 against Risko but he broke his kneecap in one of the losses, lost again while he still had the same injury then won their third fight after getting surgery to fix his leg.

He also had wins over other solid to very good fighters from the era like Jimmy Smith, Young Terry, Tommy Freeman, Ben Jeby, Lou Brouillard, Pete Latzso

Yarosz had a somewhat strange career and most of his losses require a serious asterix beside them due to weird occurances like the broken kneecap against Risko. Another example is his loss to Georgie Abrams where he lost a 10 round split decision in a horribly dirty fight from both sides where Yarosz had 8 points deducted....8 points deducted in a 10 round fight and he lost by split decision A completely shot Abrams in 1947 was robbed against a prime SRR btw.

He only had 3 or 4 legit losses during his prime where he didn't fight the opponent multiple times and win the series, lose by very controversial SD, have an injury or some strange occurrence like i described above in a 130 fight career.

Ken Overlin

Ezzard Charles - The greatest LHW ever started out at MW and was a member of Murderer's Row he arguably had the best record or certianly win/loss ratio against elite MW's from the era compared to any other MR members. Imagine Hagler holding a win over Michael Spinks, that still wouldn't equal this win but it would be the equidistant for his own era.

Fred Apostoli - MW Champion and see below

Al Hostak - MW Champion "The Savage Slav" was one of the hardest punchers in the history of the division.

Ceferino Garcia- MW Champion who holds two wins over Row member Lloyd Marshall who was a natural LHW while Ceferino started out at WW and Fred Apostoli along with other top MW's of the day, Filipino, used the Bolo Punch before Gavilan and obviously SRL who usually get credit for it, also a monster puncher

Steve Belloise x2 - really good contender who most know from SRR beating when Steve was at the very end of his career. Overlin beat him twice in title defenses when Steve was coming off a victory over Ceferino Garcia right after Garcia lost the MW title to Overlin.

Overlin also had wins over solid contenders Erich Seelig, Ben Brown x4 (this is the guy who gave Yarosz two of his losses going 2-0 against him yet Overlin went 4-0 against Brown), Nate Bolden x2, Carmen Barth, Allen Matthews, Harry Balsamo, Ralph Chong x3.

These wins over contenders would be as good, in all reality better, than almost all of Hagler's title defenses against guys like Hamso, Obel, Roldan, Sibson, etc which leaves you trying to compare Hearns, Duran, Minter, Antuofermo, to Charles, Apostoli, Hostak, Garcia who are all Champions, HOF and/or ATG's which no person in their right mind could do.

Overlin lost twice to Billy Soose including his title with both fights being considered robberies. Here's an excerpt of what the New York Times wrote in the title loss "At times he had Soose looking more puzzled than a re****ed high school freshman writing a thesis on the quantum theory." Soose was an excellent boxer who beat a prime Tony Zale when he was reigning champion but it was a non-title fight so he didn't win the belt then.

So Overlin had about 8 prime losses, 7 coming against elite opposition with over 160 career fights. To put the losses into perspective (same for Yarosz) SRR had around 10 losses during his "MW prime" excluding several he had towards the end of his career when he was clearly past it. Considering that along with everything else he did in his prime and the insane win column it would be rather difficult to not have either of these guys inside the top 10 all time at MW imo.

They also had twice as many career fights as Hagler and did all of this while fighting 10 times a year which to me requires a far greater degree of difficulty and is a more potent measure of consistency than making 11 title defenses while fighting twice a year. That context needs to be factored into ratings when ranking fighters from different eras.

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I have finally finished my homework and viewed thise original list of fighters that you posted so many months ago. I was schooled and felt the only way to open my mouth around here again was to do my homework. I viewed all of the available film on these fighters mention. I have to say I saw a few that looked very tough. Not many did I see that I think could put it all together and beat Hagler.

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Freddie Steele
Teddy Yarosz
Holman Williams

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Fred Apostoli

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Lloyd Marshall

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Georgie Abrams
Eddie Booker
Billy Soose
Al Hostak
Young Corbett III
Ceferino Garcia
Solly Kreiger
Babe Risko
Vince Dundee
Marcel Thil
Lou Brouillard
Kid Tunero
Cocoa Kid
Jack Chase
Aaron Wade
Erich Seelig

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Gorilla Jones

The
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guys I are the ones I have viewed that will give Hagler a run.

Clinton · Dec 31, 2014

Vysotskyy said: ↑

I did not intend to sound condescending or anything i'm just surprised you would state something so emphatically when you're apparently quite unfamiliar with the divisions history along with some of it's ATG's.

Well i would say you're overrating the win over Hearns to say the least but here's a bit on the three you said you didn't know.

Teddy Yarosz

Billy Conn - Conn spent about 2 years tearing through the MW division beating a whose who before moving to LHW. Yarosz fought him 3 times going 1-2 with both losses being controversial and at least one of them probably should have been the other way. They were both from Pittsburgh and Conn was the favourite son which may have been a factor in the results. This alone far exceeds the Hearns win.

Archie Moore - Moore fought at MW in the 30's as part of Murderer's Row and contrary to most fans belief many of the top white boxers did fight them, Yarosz and Overlin being two examples.

Lloyd Marshall - Another Murderer's Row member, a natural LHW like Moore and Yarosz beat him when he was already past prime right near the end of his career.

Ken Overlin x2 - beat him twice and you'll see below why it's such a quality win

Solly Kreiger - MW Champion at one point in the 30's

Vince Dundee x 3 - MW Champion who Yarosz beat to win the title going 3-0 against him.

Babe Risko - MW Champion. Yarosz went 1-2 against Risko but he broke his kneecap in one of the losses, lost again while he still had the same injury then won their third fight after getting surgery to fix his leg.

He also had wins over other solid to very good fighters from the era like Jimmy Smith, Young Terry, Tommy Freeman, Ben Jeby, Lou Brouillard, Pete Latzso

Yarosz had a somewhat strange career and most of his losses require a serious asterix beside them due to weird occurances like the broken kneecap against Risko. Another example is his loss to Georgie Abrams where he lost a 10 round split decision in a horribly dirty fight from both sides where Yarosz had 8 points deducted....8 points deducted in a 10 round fight and he lost by split decision A completely shot Abrams in 1947 was robbed against a prime SRR btw.

He only had 3 or 4 legit losses during his prime where he didn't fight the opponent multiple times and win the series, lose by very controversial SD, have an injury or some strange occurrence like i described above in a 130 fight career.

Ken Overlin

Ezzard Charles - The greatest LHW ever started out at MW and was a member of Murderer's Row he arguably had the best record or certianly win/loss ratio against elite MW's from the era compared to any other MR members. Imagine Hagler holding a win over Michael Spinks, that still wouldn't equal this win but it would be the equidistant for his own era.

Fred Apostoli - MW Champion and see below

Al Hostak - MW Champion "The Savage Slav" was one of the hardest punchers in the history of the division.

Ceferino Garcia- MW Champion who holds two wins over Row member Lloyd Marshall who was a natural LHW while Ceferino started out at WW and Fred Apostoli along with other top MW's of the day, Filipino, used the Bolo Punch before Gavilan and obviously SRL who usually get credit for it, also a monster puncher

Steve Belloise x2 - really good contender who most know from SRR beating when Steve was at the very end of his career. Overlin beat him twice in title defenses when Steve was coming off a victory over Ceferino Garcia right after Garcia lost the MW title to Overlin.

Overlin also had wins over solid contenders Erich Seelig, Ben Brown x4 (this is the guy who gave Yarosz two of his losses going 2-0 against him yet Overlin went 4-0 against Brown), Nate Bolden x2, Carmen Barth, Allen Matthews, Harry Balsamo, Ralph Chong x3.

These wins over contenders would be as good, in all reality better, than almost all of Hagler's title defenses against guys like Hamso, Obel, Roldan, Sibson, etc which leaves you trying to compare Hearns, Duran, Minter, Antuofermo, to Charles, Apostoli, Hostak, Garcia who are all Champions, HOF and/or ATG's which no person in their right mind could do.

Overlin lost twice to Billy Soose including his title with both fights being considered robberies. Here's an excerpt of what the New York Times wrote in the title loss "At times he had Soose looking more puzzled than a re****ed high school freshman writing a thesis on the quantum theory." Soose was an excellent boxer who beat a prime Tony Zale when he was reigning champion but it was a non-title fight so he didn't win the belt then.

So Overlin had about 8 prime losses, 7 coming against elite opposition with over 160 career fights. To put the losses into perspective (same for Yarosz) SRR had around 10 losses during his "MW prime" excluding several he had towards the end of his career when he was clearly past it. Considering that along with everything else he did in his prime and the insane win column it would be rather difficult to not have either of these guys inside the top 10 all time at MW imo.

They also had twice as many career fights as Hagler and did all of this while fighting 10 times a year which to me requires a far greater degree of difficulty and is a more potent measure of consistency than making 11 title defenses while fighting twice a year. That context needs to be factored into ratings when ranking fighters from different eras.

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Saad54 · Dec 31, 2014

red cobra said: ↑

Valdez was far better than Mugabi ever dreamt of being,...this could have been the premier middleweight war of all time.
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Yes but Hagler was not prime when he beat John. I think prime Hagler wins a UD 15 over prime Valdez.

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Rodrigo Valdez vs Marvin Hagler

JLP 6 Fighter/Puncher Full Member

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Rodrigo Valdez vs Marvin Hagler

JLP 6 Fighter/Puncher Full Member

Clinton Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

Saad54 Boxing Junkie Full Member